[Extrude/Bevel Polygon/Extrude Along Spline/Inset etc.] Unified with further enhancements: Bevel Profiles support, act smarter like Smart Extrude, Boundary, Shell, Random, Segments, Snaps Support etc.

Kranos_Orphydian · ‎02-24-2022

EXTRUDE, BEVEL, INSET, EXTRUDE ALONG SPLINE = ONE UNIFIED TOOL

Extrude, Bevel, Inset, Extrude along Spline, Branches etc. = one tool. This falls in the broader long overdue and multiple time requested suggestion of unifying similar tools as part of the general revamp of the Edit Poly modifier and of consolidating the modeling tools into the Command Panel. This will save space and make modeling more fluid and will follow the model of some other software like Modo, Lightwave, Maya etc. The best integration of this idea so far belongs to Modo which has the Polygon Bevel Tool to accommodate these interconnected and similar ops and also Lightwave. Lightwave old Multishift tool has similar functions and robustness but what sets it apart is its ability to preserve and keep editable the previous levels of the operations (called Shifts in Lightwave) and go back and forth between them while in Max you can only do them one at time via Apply and continue . These repeated operations can be stored and loaded through a profile preset system similar to what Modo and Cinema 4d have (link to video). Maya Extrude command is similar but a bit outdated. It also supports extrusion along splines with auto-generation and alignment of these.

In 3ds Max Bevel differs from Extrude only in Outline option so, by any means, this is a big redundancy and follows to old-school UX system of "we need a button for everything". For the Inset operation improvements alone, I made a dedicated idea you can vote about here: [Inset Tool] A full-fledged tool on par with competition: Offset Even, Edge Rail, Quad Corners, Mana....

BEVEL PROFILES PRESETS & EDITING SUPPORT (MODERN CURVE GRAPH PROFILE EDITOR UI)

Alowing user to drive the Extrude/Bevel operation by a default profile preset and the ability to edit it/create a custom one via a Curve Graph Profile Editor can be super useful, efficient and a very elegant way of working at ornamental and architectural pieces to say at least. A glimpse of its power can be seen in the profile presets integration within Modo's Polygon Bevel (link to video) but in this case the creation of custom profiles still has to be done by creating a spline same as with many old tools in Max. Cinema 4D has the most refined and creative integration of this concept but not for its counterpart of the Extrude tool but for their Extrude spline "modifier" (generator) (link to video) and MoText Object (link to video). It has it pretty much all: presets load, editing and saving, custom profile editor via a curve UI, separate bevel controls for either Start or End Caps or both etc. In 3ds Max, TextPlus object (link to video watch from 0:45 onwards) and Bevel Profile Spline modifier (link) already have a basic curve graph profile editor and a handful of presets that should be improved/modernized and see a wider and unified implementation at both tools and modifier level where there is a logic to integrate them. In this case, Extrude/Bevel polygons tool but also Edge Chamfer and modifiers like Face Extrude, Chamfer, Editable Spline (as a rendering option), Renderabale Spline, Extrude (Spline), Sweep etc., so many areas in 3ds Max that can benefit from this. It probably has to do with this old suggestion submitted by Autodesk staff itself more than anything else: Modern, Unified Curve control to replace the numerous controls spread throughout - Autodesk Communit...

Cinema 4d Extrude Generator (Caps and Bevels)

KEEP AVAILABLE AND STORE THE PREVIOUS LEVELS OF OPERATIONS (similar to Lightwave Multishift tool)

What sets Lightwave apart is its ability to preserve and keep editable the previous levels of the operations (called Shifts in Lightwave) and go back and forth between them while in Max you can only do them one at time via Apply and continue . These repeated operations can be stored and loaded through a profile preset system similar to what Modo and Cinema 4d have (link to video).

ABILITY TO INTERACTIVELY ADD NEW LEVELS WHILE THE TOOLS IS STILL ACTIVE

Connected to the above functionality and idea, it also comes the ability to arbitrary add new divisions or levels in-between while the tool is still active as demoed around 01:00 in this video (link to video).

SMART EXTRUDE BEHAVIOR

Extrude/Bevel should act smarter like Smart Extrude when needed (link). It should support forms of operation like cut-through, overlap, outward intersection, and elimination of inverted side faces on boundary edges. Faces that are affected by the operation should be rebuilt and stitched together, matching the final visual output that the artists see with no need to manually repair hidden faces or geometric data. The selected faces are extruded in the same direction, with affected faces automatically adjusted or generated to create a water-tight mesh. When extruding faces inward, Smart Extrude cuts through and delete faces on any part of the mesh to allow the result to completely extend through. The resulting hole is restitched to the surrounding faces. This is similar to a boolean subtraction, but performed on a polygon component. When extruding faces outward into another face on any element on the mesh, any intersection is stitched together to produce a clean result. This is similar to a boolean union.

3ds Max Extrude & Bevel Tools Improvements- Smart extrude behavior.png

EXTRUDE ALONG AXIS

Another option for the extrude tool would be able to perform the operation along an axis instead of being solely normal based, so that even if your face is skewed you can still extrude along a straight path (x-axis for example).

SET EXTRUDE DIRECTION BY EDGE OR VERTICES

This would work similar to how Smart Extrude works with Snap Working Pivot

BOUNDARY

This is another case when, by option, Extrude/ Bevel op should behave more like Interactive Smart Extrude and act smarter by eliminating inverted side faces (negative extrude) or not creating them at all (positive extrude) on boundary edges. Although, with bigger and simpler details this could be rather a design choice, the result can be much faster achieved via extrude op with Boundary toggle than using other tools in lack of. On smaller more intricate details (like long narrow panel lines for ex), more often than not, those extra faces at boundary are not desirable (granted you are even aware of them) (link to video).

EXTRUDE TO CURSOR/CLICK (or other solution to speed up repeated extrude+rotate workflow)

Whenever you model from references and try to follow some sort of curvature in it or freely try to “draw” modeling something like column ornaments, an awful lot of time you have to repeatedly extrude and rotate which becomes tedious and really adds up to the total working time (link to video). The most simple and obvious solution is found in Blender’s Extrude to Cursor tool which creates a new extrusion at the current cursor position by just clicking and the face from which originated also gets automatically rotated (link to doc, link to video). In Max, this behavior or other similar solution has more sense to be added to the Smart Extrude function but it could come in a more precise form with an Edit Poly tool as well.

Extrude to Cursor.png

SHELL

Whenever you extrude/bevel a polygon it never creates a closed volume. The purpose of a Shell option is the same as the Shell modifier but in the form of a direct modeling operation, that is to “solidify”, to give thickness to an object by adding an extra set of faces facing the opposite direction of existing faces and maintain a closed volume. Unlike the modifier, because the extrusion takes care of that, it doesn’t need to also add edges connecting the inner and outer surfaces wherever faces are missing in the original object. This follows the model of the Thicken option for the Modo’s Polygon Bevel tool (link to video, watch from 0:45) or Create Caps option for Cinema 4D's Extrude Tool. In Blender this is a separate tool altogether from the Extrude called Solidify Faces (link), a direct modeling counterpart for its Shell-like Solidify modifier.

RANDOM

This can be a great way to quickly achieve variation when performing Extrude/Bevel on multiple selection using By Polygon option. There are similar features in Cinema4D (Extrude Tool's Offset Variation link) and Modo (Polygon Bevel Tool's Random Value range +/- link) and even in Maya but in the later I don’t think it works properly as someone reported here (link). In Modo it goes by defining a random range similar to 3ds Max value range as a way of selecting edges by face angle "+/-" within Crease Set Modifier (link to video). It should see a wider implementation (Inset at least should also benefit from it). For Bevel and Extrude tools it should allow randomization for Height and Outlline amounts separately and simultaneously. Also, if the Extrude along Spline gets unified with these in a more versatile Bevel Polygon tool (as in Maya) it should also get support for Twist and Taper. Same goes if, in the same manner like Maya, these options don’t depend on previously created and selected spline because this can be auto generated and aligned with the normals, therefore they are available nonetheless.

SEGMENTS

Instead of repeating the operation the number of times the number of divisions you need, more often than not, you want to control the number of divisions along extrude direction within the same op. The additional workflow of performing the extrude/bevel op, then doing your edge ring selections and utilizing the Connect tool is not the most efficient. This will make 3ds Max less clicky and comply more with the standards.

SELECT EXTRUSION SIDES

Normally, the original selection that gets extruded/beveled stay selected which is great. Having a toggle to switch the selection to the outer sides to newly created polygons (Shell in Cinema 4D) can result in powerful and intuitive workflows and will follow the model of some modifiers. When doing repeated operations or when Segments parameter will be added this will be even more needed. Along with Randomize option this should be generally expanded to other tools that can benefit from it and for the sake of a greater consistency. If Bevel Profile presets and editing support will be added, this selection toggle would be even more important and can be refined and extended even more to include Beveled surfaces only or/and Bevel Steps (similar to Cinema 4d link).

Seelect outer.png

SNAPS SUPPORT

Like many invaluable tools in 3ds Max, Extrude/Bevel related tools still doesn’t work with Snaps (same thing with Swift Loop, Select and Scale, Inset etc.). Lack of these type of features, kind of defeats the purpose of having this tool in a more parametric and precise form, now when Smart Extrude already supports this.

Snaps Support.png

FOLLOW TAPER

Similar to AutoCAD PressPull Command alternate extrude behavior when you can offset a face as an extrude respecting the surface continuity/following existing taper of adjacent sides. In AutoCAD there are no new edges created but that might be desirable in our case.

Follow Taper.png

FOLLOW EDGE CONSTRAINTS

Along with Follow Taper, having support for Edge Constraints in the way illustrated, would be very handy to have as alternate behaviors of the basic Extrude operation in situations like having to work with polygons at angles or when you want to maintain the existing surface continuity. These two are very related so maybe a unique solution would be more appropriate. Obviously, for this to work properly, it requires the Smart Extrude tech, to do all the stitching and connections and I might even hint to an extra option to add loops for maintaining a proper quad topology.

Follow Edge Constraints.png

TAPER & TWIST

These should be available for your standard Extrude/Bevel op as well, regardless they get unified or not with the Extrude along Spline tool in a more consolidated Bevel Polygons tool. These should be independent of a previously created spline or, in worst case, this can be autogenerated and aligned to the average of the component normals like in Maya.

Taper and Twist.png

MAX SMOOTHING ANGLE (or other solution for extruding polygon groups with very sharp edges)

When extruding/beveling a polygon group with very sharp edges, the default Local Normals method in 3ds Max gives undesirable results. In Maya you can avoid this by using only the Thickness value instead of Local Translate Z. Offset Even option in Blender for its Extrude Along Normals Tool addresses this issue pretty well. In Modo you have even more control and you can adjust this via a Max Smoothing Angle value. Going by Modo doc this “Shifts vertices along the averaged vertex normal vectors computed from connecting polygon face normals. When the angles between faces are less than Max Smoothing Angle, the averaged normals are computed per smoothing face group and then combined with the separated normal vectors as the extrude vector” (link to video).

Max Smoothing Angle.png

EXTRUDE ALONG SPLINE (use Edge as Path, fix non straight corners etc.)

Besides its functionality being unified with the other Extrude tools, Extrude along spline (if we can still call it like this) should also support edge selection as path for the extrusion. This was inspired by MIAUU's Extrude Along Path script (link to download, link to video demo) Normally, you would need to create a shape from that edge first but this speeds the process and its more intuitive. Moreover, like you can see in the demo video, he pointed out some bugs or undesirable behaviors with the default tool like non straight corners issues, or bad results if segments are not set correctly first. These should also be addressed.

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MY OTHER IDEAS

MODELING

UI AND VIEWPORT

OTHERS

hwoRX6FJ · ‎02-26-2022

Just amazing offers as always. All this is very necessary, as these are fundamental tools in modeling. Extrude to cursor is incredibly cool implemented in blender.

Kranos_Orphydian · ‎02-26-2022

I will soon add a new entry regarding Profiles support but this is a bigger picture request all along Max tools like chamfer and such.

hwoRX6FJ · ‎06-28-2022

The funny thing is that all these great innovations are taken from other programs. In general, studying other 3D programs, I am amazed every time how outdated 3d max is. A long time ago, 3d max had the widest functionality for modeling, now 3d max is trailing behind all 3d programs, lagging more and more every day. I wonder if the developers even know the functionality of other programs themselves? It feels like they don't know. You make great posts with suggestions, but only the developers don't seem to care about it. It's funny - there are still no quad cap holes in the max. In edit poly doesn't even have a command to split elements into different objects. (OMG!) I jumped off this sinking ship and every day I am convinced that I made the right choice.

[Extrude/Bevel Polygon/Extrude Along Spline/Inset etc.] Unified with further enhancements: Bevel Profiles support, act smarter like Smart Extrude, Boundary, Shell, Random, Segments, Snaps Support etc.

[Extrude/Bevel Polygon/Extrude Along Spline/Inset etc.] Unified with further enhancements: Bevel Profiles support, act smarter like Smart Extrude, Boundary, Shell, Random, Segments, Snaps Support etc.

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