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Walls have framing.....

Walls have framing.....

Walls have some kind of framing (unless they're concrete and/or block).  So why does Revit not include framing in the walls?

 

Allow us to specify the

  1. top & bottom plate sizes
  2. stud size & spacing
  3. what size header is needed (this would probably need to be some kind of formula:  Opening< 5 = 2 x 6, Opening< 0, 2 x 8 etc.
  4. how should the top/bottom plates tie together at the corners.

Allow us to override the framing members if needed (like we can with trusses).

 

Similarly:

  1. We should be able to tell a roof to place a specific truss at a specific spacing.  The roof would need to have "regions" one region might use a truss while another region might need rafters/joists.
  2. We should be able to tell a floor to place a specific floor joist at a specific spacing.  As with the wall, it would need instructions for dealing with openings (i.e. stairs) so that it can place the required headers.  There'd have to be a way to enter a maximum joist length and a required overlap length. Revit would need to place two joists sistered together if the floor were to require a longer joist.  We would need to be able to manually move the location of the overlap so long as both joists stay within the length tolerance.  Then we could place a beam and any required posts under the overlap ourselves (I'm not suggesting that should be automated too).

This would help with creating a correct model and with the process of generating accurate sections.

23 Comments
dazza1639
Advocate

Walls also have other systems that are part of the wall, such as cladding, rainscreens with brackets and support rails, all of which need modelling or adding to the sections. Ideally we should be able to create these and add them to the walls as parts. It would be a good start if we could create wall components in a sub-category of walls but that category remains locked down for use by system families only.

craigh_bim
Advocate

It would be great if Revit allowed us to add framing to a wall assembly simply as graphical, but not modeled data. This can match the current rebar modeling in Structural. If I could associate a spacing value, and then have it drag-able It would help dramatically. This could be turned on in Fine detail and, off in Medium and Coarse view details.

 

WM_Ron_Allen
Collaborator

Suspect acquiring AGA CAD would be the most likely solution there:

Wood Framing Wall+ http://www.aga-cad.com/products/bim-solutions/wood-framing-wall
Metal Framing Wall+ http://www.aga-cad.com/products/bim-solutions/metal-framing-wall

 

You can use the structural beam systems applied to surfaces to achieve similar effects. AGA tools is IMO the foremost competitor  in this area for now.

 

There was a timber framing tool adding for similar usage but I think it was nipped in 2015.

doni49
Mentor

@WM_Ron_Allen,

 

RE the timber framing tool, please take a look the following link:

 

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-architecture-forum/issues-with-extension-quot-timber-framing-for...

 

Besides the problems noted there, it didn't seem be dynamically linked to the walls/roof in any way (at least not as far as I could tell).

WM_Ron_Allen
Collaborator

Agree the need is there- why I voted for it too : )

 

Unfortunately No-

 

almost too much data to manage with this generation of computers. That was Archicad's big fail early on was - TMI (Too much information)_ at the time for showing all the little sub parts and computers couldn't handle it. compound a 20 ft wall with 16o.c. is ~19 vertical studs (With corners) with double top plate and sole plate- adding 22 studs and 132 faces per wall, excluding separated layers of gyp 

 

Sometimes Revit is too generic... if you need to specify stick counts early on  it can be an issue.. but if you can wait for the process to develop around LOD 350 then use tools (like AGA CAD) you can get accurate framing, corners, stick counts, roof framing, structural analysis. AGA also will create panelized / modular view sheets and takeoffs.

 

IMO That product (or capability) would indeed be nice to have within Revit... until they can incorporate it, the beam systems can get most of it, families with swappable framing embedded- even more of it to guessing about 98% of the 'fiddly bits'. A lot of work... Would model hatch patterns in the stud layer oriented to object work?(Can we use model patterns for material cuts?)

Zsolt.Varga
Autodesk Support

Voted up for a German customer, Raimund Herbst with the similar wish reported in support case no.: 12271562 - regarding modelling the top plate of a drywall in Revit.

Roberto.Cintora
Explorer

Voted up!!

 

Please, don't forget to allow steel framing (Cold-roled sections). Also, the ability to create trusses, or diagonal components, in the walls.

 

Thanks!

Rab_i
Advocate

Like @WM_Ron_Allen mentioned and in my experience, tools like Beam systems has almost all workflow except if it could allow for custom sketch line definition which then would allow us to specify a particular structural family for that line would be fantastic. I find it so close yet too far. Perhaps @Anonymous can leverage Truss system or Beam system to allow for more flexible sketch lines that could be custom named for matching them with defined structural framing members.

wr.marshall
Advisor

The idea is to create a wall layer with framing elements that could be modified as required.

This would ease workflows of creating Stud walls(UK) and Wood Frame Façade Structures(USA) (likely these are used in other locations too). This however needs to be set as a wall layer and/or stand alone feature, or modification of the curtain wall.

 

It would work similar to a curtain walls as can be seen in these YouTube links

Metal stud walls in Revit 

Wall Framing Construction in Revit Tutorial (Metal or Wood Stud Walls) 

Framing Metal/Light-gauge Steel Walls in Revit 

 

Some Questions relating to this could also be found in the Revit Forum

Wood framed walls in revit 

Wood Framing for Revit 2017 

Curtain Wall Mullion Schedule to show "full" lengths

Dry wall construction 

 

Some possible issues, solutions and items for consideration:

1) As can be seen in this question regarding the Length of mullions ( Curtain Wall Mullion Schedule to show "full" lengths  ) , the user wanted to have the portions of mullions showing a total Length. The proposed solution was to have a "nested in a nested in a nested...CW" This strategy seems fine and works but I (and probably others) feel this is too much work(too many clicks etc...). It would be helpful if there was a way to set the length as suppliers will advise lengths of units as can be seen in the following links:

Metal Sections Knauf C Studs.pdf - By Knuaf (UK) - Note this is a PDF download

Gypframe 146 S 50 'C' Studs - By British Gypsum 

The builder would want to know how many units of a particular length would need to be ordered. This would include any trimmed pieces (ie wall is 3m, but unit is 2,4m, thus 2 x 2,4m required and the trimmed length scheduled 0.6m, leaving 1.8m as waste or used elsewhere (linked to 0.6m if used elsewhere ie 1x2.4m - 0.6(w1), 0.8m(w2), 0.8m(w3), 0.2m(waste)). In other words Revit should try use 1 unit as much as possible and advise of the waste, rather than scheduling each trimmed piece as a new unit.

 

2) As can be seen in the YouTube video ( Metal stud walls in Revit  ) the user is changing the profile at 0:56, I assume to change the orientation of the profile. Playing around with this idea I found that you could actually rotate a mullion profile with some limitations

-The angle of rotation is limited to +90 to -90. For ease of use this should be set to 360deg(or equivalent angle measurement system if you work with those) as some might want to use 270deg rather than -90deg(vice-versa -270=+90...). 

- With regards to the profile orientation and position this should become a instance parameter as it appears that this is controlled by a type so is changing all instead of just one. In real world scenario the outer elements in a length of wall would have the back/web portions facing out i.e. [ [ [ [ [ [ ]

 

3) Visualization in 3D could be similar to rebar (floating solid) or mep systems (other elements faded). If the viz similar to mep viz this would include the other wall layers

 

 

 

Tags (5)
barthbradley
Consultant

Look to StrucSoft or AGACAD for framing solutions.

Every project I do would benefit from the ability to include timber framing set out. Yes Agacad is an option. But it's just another additional cost to add to the list of all the extras necessary to make revit a better software for the end users.

WM_Ron_Allen
Collaborator

There is also MWF Metal wood framing by Strucsoft Solutions Which also does metal framing.

 

If you are only after a top/sole plate, incorporate an embedded sweep and check if you can embed a  detail profile in the profile- Not sure but that might work : )

@WM_Ron_AllenIf I was to pay for every plugin I wanted, I would end up paying more than what I pay for the annual license. It should be native within the program, not rely on third party software.

WM_Ron_Allen
Collaborator

@matt.barnett72U83  You could always manually or dynamo it as well with framing systems : ) Not as automated as the high-end modular framing solutions but works.  Als hatch patterns can represent framing in materials- depends on how accurate you want it to be.

 

I wondered with autodesk marketing if they would ever consider analytics for actual use time scenarios from production teams to determine actual time spent VS what autodesk needs to run their operation?  And value to end clients... or if the addins would go to a per day or per use or per element model... VS time saved that cost analysis.

wr.marshall
Advisor
wr.marshall
Advisor
WM_Ron_Allen
Collaborator

@matt.barnett72U83 - as a hypothetical proposition - what would you be willing to pay (150% to 300% of the cost per license) if about 90% of ALL the (long-term) requested features voted up on the forums were implemented? Or would you rather one-off and purchase add-ons as-needed?

 

To @sasha.crotty  @ Autodesk - Crazy idea- but- Democratizing features...  It would be interesting to see a "cost estimate" of some count (Tokens?) for implementation of  features into OOTB. solutions  What if teams of users could have "Votes per license" in their company - or perhaps add a "tipping point" style money pool to collaborate pay towards a feature implemented by Autodesk in their platform?

 

 

 

@WM_Ron_Allen  - No, but I don't support many requested features either. Just the ones that benefit the bulk of users. I would suggest some of the ideas implemented tend to favour large scale projects, which is great, but most Revit users aren't working on large scale projects so aren't benefitting from these product improvements. There is a lot of efficiency and precision that can be gained by mapping out the framing. At some point prior to construction, framing elevations will be produced, whether by the architect or the pre-fab framing company.

Plus I dislike the clutter of too many addins, it's much more clean to have useful tools built in to the original software. 

Rab_i
Advocate

Furthermore Revit already has systems built around curtain wall and Beam System. Even a system like Truss where we can predefine line types to host framing structural framing families are already there. We just need them to match the bare bones of stud framing. If we can define cripples, jambs, headers, sill, bottom track, and top track, start and end studs, we have enough means and methods to make Revit useful for framing than advanced add-ins.

ConstantineC
Advocate

I`m here to keep this thread open!

Indeed even a simple framing solution that is built in Revit would be appreciated by all.

I also have another simple question.  

Why isnt there an option to Embed the curtain wall into a host wall without cutting its  full width but only by the thickness of the curtain wall? This way you could embedd framing into their proper layer and if if you atach the ends of the curtain wall too, it becomes a flexible system.

ConstantineC_0-1688110092907.png

 

Of course there is then the problem of scheduling. I wish I could use structural framing, not just mullions for the curtain wall.  

So a combination of Beam Systems and embedded curtain walls would do it!  The technology is there it just needs a few extra tweaks, I think

 

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