Move project to origin point
@barthbradley regarding your list of steps, the act of unclipping the Project Base Point (PBP) allows it to be separated from the origin it identifies. Thus when you move it (unclipped) the origin remains where you left it (at your "A") and the PBP changes to becomes a marker only, it reports coordinate values referencing its distance from the origin (at your "A").
When either the PBP or Survey Point (SP) are moved while clipped the underlying coordinate system is altered. The stock templates are configured with PBP and SP located at the same spot. They are not connected at all. In practice, when we use Acquire Coordinates on a DWG the SP is adjusted to mark the WCS origin of that file. Revit's SP and coordinate system is like a UCS in AutoCAD but it is used to relate to the WCS of an AutoCAD file. However confusing, conversely, in Revit the PBP is more like the WCS we use in AutoCAD.
In my experience there is no useful reason to move the PBP while clipped, ever. Making it possible to do so has only increased user confusion and mistakes. Project templates should be configured around the PBP as firms see fit, for example modelling to the right and above the PBP to mimic the practice of creating drawings in AutoCAD to the right of and above the origin so coordinate values are all positive values.
There are two useful reasons to move the PBP while unclipped. First, to move it to mark a specific location so Spot Coordinate annotation can reference a specific building relevant location. Second, to use much more recent linked file positioning option "Auto - Project Base Point to Project Base Point" to link files to an agreed upon Project Base Point location, like at a grid intersection (again based on moving it unclipped).
As for the original post, if the model was indeed created very far from the origin of the Revit file then the only real way to resolve it is to endure the pain of trying to move the entire model closer to the origin.
FWIW, personally I refer to the file's origin, apart from the Project Base Point and Survey Point, as the mathematical origin or reference origin. It is this origin that matters the most regarding the error/warning messages we get and the graphic issues that can arise. Keeping the relevant geometry of the model close to this mathematical origin is what Revit wants us to do.
Steve Stafford
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@Anonymous wrote:
The Origin is there, what you see is the PBP 0,0,0 and the SP 0,0,0 are miles away from it. But experiencing how you perceive knowledge I don't expect you see that.
Yes, the Origin can be found because I put a fricking LINK on it, otherwise, how the hell else would you be able to locate it. That's the point I'm making. I don't know how to dumb it down any further for your benefit. Sorry.
You have been using AutoCAD for nearly 30 years and you still don't know that you cannot move WCS 0,0,0? I have to admit that I had only expected it from some newbie with maybe 2 months experiences.
Where the hell did I say that you can move the WCS in AutoCAD?! Answer: I NEVER DID. Again: the misinformation you're spouting today is astonishing.
Take a nap, @ToanDN. Please.
I don't remember asking you to locate the origin. So did OP. Do you usually have this reading comprehension problem?
The whole time you were trying to prove that you can move the Revit Origin Point, or as @SteveKStafford referred to as "mathematical origin". And the whole time you are just moving the PBP away from it.
Oh so now you are realizing you cannot move AutoCAD WCS 0,0,0? Congratulations!!! See where we are getting at? Still no? Not to worry, keep on thinking and you may eventually understand that you cannot move Revit Origin Point... Some day.
Let's agree that shared coordinates is a fussy subject. The language and descriptions related to explanations are obtuse.
As such, there is no need to go after each other. You're both pretty knowledgeable, it seems to me that you're writing at each other but still missing each other's point. I suggest a deep breath... cheers!
Steve Stafford
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@Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you Steve. I’m a big fan of yours, by the way."
Cheers, glad to help!
"So, my questions to you Steve are:"
"1) If Linking in a CAD drawing “Origin to Origin”, places the Link on a point in space that is located far from the PBP’s 0,0,0 – isn’t that point in space the Project Origin?"
Yes, sort of... technically when you link a DWG using Origin to Origin that aligns Revit's PBP with the DWG's WCS origin, assuming Revit's linking threshold isn't compromised. If compromised Revit forces Center to Center instead (center of extent of DWG to center of extent of Revit model).
As such, in practice I don't see how the WCS origin could land anywhere but at the PBP using Origin to Origin. I'd suspect the file violated Revit's threshold for linked files or another positioning option was used inadvertently. Also possible is that the SP is far from the Mathematical Origin because someone moved it in the template or before modelling started. It would also be necessary for the PBP to be moved unclipped to the same spot as the SP before the DWG is linked using Origin to Origin.
"2) If that point in space is the Project Origin, isn’t it essentially “moved” if the PBP is reading 0,0,0?"
No, it never moved. The symbol did (unclipped). Imagine a sheet of graph paper, sketch a PBP symbol at a grid intersection. if you could grab the PBP symbol, while the PBP is clipped, moving it also moves the graph paper with it. In contrast, moving it unclipped changes where PBP symbol rests on the graph paper, the graph paper doesn't move.
Using the example file you provided, and testing with my own files, I believe the Survey Point was moved far from the Revit file's Mathematical Origin and then the PBP was moved unclipped to the same location. That's why it reports 0,0. If it was moved unclipped back to the location marked by the DWG file you'll find those coordinate values are much different. That's because the PBP reports its offset from the SP origin location. I find that fact confusing to most people, me as well. The coordinate systems are separate but report values that imply otherwise.
Since the act of unclipping the PBP and moving it does not change origin of the file, that's why it is possible to choose the Move to Startup Location via the right-click context menu. While clipped we can't really change where the Mathematical Origin is, because it appears to move with the PBP symbol. If you pay close attention you'll find that moving the PBP while clipped actually moves the SP away from the PBP while the PBP stays put, but looks like it moved. Watch the elevation symbols surrounding the PBP when you do this with a stock template. Again the confusing aspect of reporting an offset relative to the SP suggests the PBP has shifted when it is really the SP that has. If you link a fresh DWG using Origin to Origin you'll find it lands at the PBP, not the SP.
In order to fix the situation you provided in your file it is necessary to use Move to Startup Location and then move the entire model over to be near the PBP, using the SP as the origin for the move, to place it at the WCS origin of the DWG file.
The same is most likely true for the original poster too.
Steve Stafford
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Accepted solution
@Anonymous wrote:
...I didn't have a clue until 4 days ago that revit files also has this third point...This notion of a third point is a misnomer. The Project Base Point and Survey Point markers are annotation. By default they identify the origin of their corresponding coordinate system. When clipped and moved they also alter the position of their related coordinate systems. When unclipped they just move around like symbol on a drawing or a stake in the ground, in the real world. You can pull the stake out of the ground and place it elsewhere on site but the property doesn't move, just the stake, that's unclipped behavior.
Play around if you want, and let me know if you find a way to resolve it and moved everything.
The only way to resolve it at this point is hard and messy. You have to select everything in the model and move it all to a new closer location.
In your file I was able to move it all but received errors about elements being constrained, attachments that missed targets and join conditions that required removing the joins. I had to be careful to select elements in Design Options. The site elements didn't seem to want to move together. If you move everything using the same offset values or add reference planes to snap to it shouldn't take too long...for this file at least. I spent about five minutes on it and got it all back to the origin. Can't say how well the shared coordinates fared in the process. I'd redo that just to be sure it is correct.
Steve Stafford
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Good luck!
I've had poor luck with binding over the years, to the extent that I more or less forget it is possible. Once you go down a dead end road too often you tend to drive past it eventually.
Steve Stafford
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