Weld threshold removed from symmetry in 2022?

[Anonymous]

This seems like a really strange thing to remove. What's the solution for that now? It's making a huge mess of my verts.

[Noren2]

Confirmed. As soon as things get small, incorrect vertices can be welded. Didn't find a setting for this and as far as I can tell, it should be well within the unit accuracy suggested by the units setup (scaling up does help, though). So I have to agree that it seems to be a strange decision to remove that.

Also there should be an option to preserve hidden edges, right now the edges of any polygon touching the mirror plane are rearranged (and it doesn't matter if the specific hidden edge is even anywhere near the plane).

[RobH2]

I noticed this as well. I like the new functions but I used the weld threshold a lot, myself. I liked that feature. It was critical for a nice seam many times. 

I just did a test and if you uncheck 'Weld Seam' your verts don't get all scrambled and eaten and you can of course then go up to a new modifier and weld from an Editible Poly sub-object mode. But it was nice to be able to do it right there in 'Slice.' I think you need to go to the '3ds Max Ideas' forum and ask that they put that back in for us. 

[senorpablo]

I don't care for this practice of removing features that have existed and worked perfectly for decades.

They also removed the 'display subdivision' setting from the "improved" subdivide modifier. 

It demonstrates a real lack of understanding of how people use their product. 

[OccultMonk]

Is this still not re-implemented? Please implement the weld threshold again, as I can not use it like this. 

[umar.muzammil782KB]

Yes it is removed and its extremely annoying.  This feature needs to be added again without second thoughts, its critical.

[blakerobinson]

Also experiencing this and it appears to actually be the 'Slice Along Mirror' option that's at fault. It is welding vertices that are extremely close together (even if Weld Seam is turned off).

There seems to be no workaround for this and it has made the symmetry tool practically useless for anything with small units of measurement... Hope this is fixed soon.

Weirdly if you load up a 3dsmax 2021 scene that has a Symmetry modifier, this problem does not occur (and 'Threshold' appears as an option again). Older scenes must be using some 'legacy' version of the symmetry modifier. I wonder if there's a way to recreate this in maxscript.

[TurboChiken]

Yes, Autodesk, it's NOT OK THAT YOU'VE REMOVED PERMENANT LICENCES, UPPED THE YEARLY PRICE RIDICULOUSLY HIGH, SLOWED DEVELOPMENT TO A CRAWL, AND THEN BUSTED CRITICAL TOOLS THAT WE DEPEND ON THAT HAVE WORKED FOR DECADES. Apparently they have even fewer beta testers than developers.

[OccultMonk]

3dsmax 2022, It is unuseable like this, please fix it! 

[Anonymous]

I also agree than this should be added back into 3ds max as soon as possible. It's almost impossible to work with the symmetry modifier without it

[JezEmin]

This smacks of lack of quality control and efficient program testing at Autodesk.  Errors like this should simply never happen.

[Anonymous]

Who said it was an error?

[Anonymous]

Removing it was an error in judgement. That is what everyone here is saying... 

[RobH2]

I'm a little dismayed at the tone this thread has taken and the amount of venom being thrown at the Max developers. I don't work for autodesk and am just a user like all of you but I've been around a long time and I can tell you that the developers I'm had exchanges with are intelligent, dedicated and care deeply about Max.

There are 100's of 1000s of little items to keep track of in Max. I hope you can find a way to give them a break. You've let your dissatisfaction and wishes be known, there is no use to keep piling on. It's a "minor" inconvenience and there is a good workaround.

I can name several other leading softwares that have annoying changes that I wish were fixed but there is no use to keep hammering on the dead horse. This is the nature of software development. It's never perfect. This is not an inadequacy in the Max team. It's up to us to adapt and go make a living with it, even if it means having to work around oddities and minor issues. 

[JezEmin]

I too have been involved professionally as a user of 3DS Max since 3D Studio Release 3, so, since around 1995.  

Before then, I was a computer programmer (and we *never* rolled out buggy software, ever, because.... it was in the financial sector.....), so I can state that this does smack of poor rollout.  But..... as more and more software houses are moving to subscription,  I have seen this not only at Autodesk but now by others, not a million miles away.....who are rolling out software without proper testing and expecting their customers to beta test for them.  I know that because within hours of them rolling out their latest version, I’d found a bug which they thanked me for reporting (I repeat, I found it within a few hours of issuing).

I haven’t started using 2022 yet because it’s too soon, personally, I’ll give it another 4-5 months before I do.

However, I *do* use this particular modifier a LOT and use that particular function within this modifier a lot almost always.  So if others are already complaining that this is an issue and unworkable for them, I can believe it (and so, it doesn’t make me want to jump to 3DS Max 2022 any sooner).

As the saying goes, more speed, less haste.....

(Please excuse grammar, I’m typing via my ipad)

[blakerobinson]

I second what RobH2 says. I'm just a user (long time, though, from being in the games industry) and had contacted Autodesk about this issue. I don't know how much I can share of our conversation, so will just say that their support got back to me very quickly, recreated the issue on their end, passed it on to the developers that seemed very keen to address the issue.

There have been far worse bugs over the years and worst-case, Symmetry works in Max 2021, which is included in the subscription. I think we have to accept that modern software development (especially subscription software) is basically a rolling-beta-test for customers. That's the nature of the beast nowadays. It's not right, or helpful to people who are paying for said software, but that's just the way it works. The developers don't make these decisions and have very little input on the rollout of the software. As JezEmin says - I'll be sticking with '21 for a while yet until issues like this are ironed out.

For those looking for another workaround, I just discovered that the Slice tool does not suffer from this problem. What you can do is the following:

• Add a slice modifier to your stack with Remove Positive turned on,
• Add a Symmetry modifier on top and uncheck Slice Along Mirror.

This basically mirrors the Max 2021 way of symmetry without welding-snap issues (at least to the scales I've tested).

[lorddavius]

C'mon guys. Are the people here complaining (some with high level of knowledge) without testing or researching about the modifier?

The weld threshold was not removed "by mistake". It was not "lack of quality control". I'm a beta tester, and just as me, many have tested this new feature. Of course bugs and problems CAN slip by, but this bashing is 100% underserved. Do you guys realize that there are professionals who spent a lot of their time on these tools to bring them to the users?

The threshold was removed because it now uses a NEW algorithm that keeps track of the cut vertices and weld their counterparts not based on distance but based on parenting. Meaning it will ALWAYS weld the correct mirrored/symmetry vertices. Sure, it can have bugs and issues (and maybe there are instances where you might want to weld more than the sliced vertices), but many of the talk here is based on sheer disinformation and bile.

We can all do better in fostering construtive criticism instead of plain attacking - even by people who have NOT installed 2022 but could NOT refrain to testing it themselves but jump fast on the bashing wagon.

Let's be better people.

[lorddavius]

Could you show what mess it is creating? Images or video go a long way.

[blakerobinson]

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@lorddavius wrote:

We can all do better in fostering construtive criticism instead of plain attacking - even by people who have NOT installed 2022 but could NOT refrain to testing it themselves but jump fast on the bashing wagon.

---

Kind of agree. I think people sharing workarounds and tips on how to deal with it until it's fixed is better than beating a dead horse.

I did notice that the threshold was removed and assumed something smart had been done in the background. As I mentioned before, This issue doesn't actually seem to be with Weld Seam, but with Slice Along Mirror. When this option is turned on, the slice is performing some kind of weld of close vertices, but provides no threshold option. Here's a video I posted elsewhere:

You can see those two very close vertices merging when Slice Along Mirror is toggled on and off (and you can see from my previous post that this same issue does not happen if using a separate Slice and Symmetry-without-slice-along-mirror modifier stack). My experiments show that it's welding everything with a threshold of roughly ~0.08ish.

That video above is obviously a very extreme example of small-scale modelling that I made for support to recreate, but it was something I was encountering with actual work so it's definitely something affecting normal workflow for me.

As mentioned, I spoke with support and the issue is being looked into internally.

[lorddavius]

@blakerobinson Indeed I can repro those issues, and indeed they seem NOT related (at least not at first sight) to the weld threshold but how the slice takes place. If you go in very small objects this is more pronounced indeed (and something that I missed completely while testing it).

Then again, this is the very first version of a new symmetry mod. It's natural that some bugs could be introduced and slipped by QA. But rest assured - this is already know by devs and a fix is coming.

Thanks for acknowledging that trying to be constructive (even with harsh criticism) is better than just bashing for the sake of it. I can understand people being frustrated by the hinderance this can bring, but seeing people who have not even INSTALLED the software, just jump on the bashing without even trying it and assuming things is appalling to me. Most would probably never encounter it if not for those working on very small scale objects or super dense meshes (to whom I'm thankful for finding it out).