Revit Lacks Basic Functions

[Anonymous]

I've been using Revit for over a year (I'm user-certified), and I've done tons of research into specific step-by-step instructions regarding certain processes. Sadly, I've found many frustrated Revit users that are unable to use basic functions that programs like AutoCAD have been utilizing for many years. I know that both programs are different, and their purposes can vary, but many people who have been using AutoCAD for 10+ years are unwilling to transition to Revit for seemingly obvious and rational reasons. I know that Revit can deliver more results than AutoCAD, and that BIM is the new standard, but I still feel more comfortable using AutoCAD merely because of its variety of functions. Revit seems to be lacking these essential functions.

Here's a few key comparisons and issues that have impacted my efficiency and ability to deliver results as quickly as I should:

1. The "Midway between two points" command: I used this a ton when I used AutoCAD Architecture to compete in a drafting conference. It saved me time and guaranteed accurate results. Revit doesn't have this function, and my research has led me to believe that I would have to run a complex script or use a special component as work-around.

2. Subregions don't snap to each other: After creating a basic and flat topographical surface, I created subregions that represented grass, sand, and sidewalks. When I sketched these subregions and wanted them to touch other subregions, I was unable to snap to their edges. The only work-around that I found was to create the entire site plan in AutoCAD, import that CAD file into Revit, and use it as an overlay that I traced. Why do I have to use a second program's lines to trace over? Why can't I snap to the corners and edges of other subregions?

3. Walls drawn at irregular angles don't have snaps or dimensions: When I try to place a door or window into a wall that's not exactly horizontal or vertical, the linear dimension guide disappears and I'm unable to snap to any face on that wall. This is extremely frustrating: Placing a door on a wall in a specific location takes me seconds in AutoCAD Architecture, regardless of what angle the wall is oriented. In Revit, I have to create and switch to an elevation view and use reference plane lines or model lines as guides. This is extremely time-consuming and inefficient.

I hope that someone can assist me in overcoming these shortfalls. Perhaps I haven't turned on a setting that enables these obvious functions. Perhaps my research is incomplete and outdated. Nevertheless, if it's this difficult for me to do research and figure out how to perform basic functions in a BIM program, then the program needs to be updated and given an easy-to-access set of complex tools that every draftsman/designer/architect/engineer needs to complete accurate projects.

P.S.: If I posted this in the wrong place, that's because Revit isn't on the "Product Feedback" list: https://www.autodesk.com/company/contact-us/product-feedback. Please guide me to the proper "forum" if this is the wrong place to discuss my post.

[pieter7]

As for the mid between two points: it's actually one of the highest voted ideas on this platform. Consider adding your vote: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/mid-of-two-points-snap/idi-p/6331573

Also, if you want your ideas to be considered by the development team, it's important to split them up in separate ideas. 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Pieter! I up-voted the post you linked.

I'll split my ideas up in the future.

[dplumb_BWBR]

This site isn't intended as a Help Desk (I'd suggest going to the Revit Forum at www.revitforum.org for that)

That said, I'm puzzled by your comment about Doors. Doors are one of the first things you learn about Revit. They "snap" automatically to be in line with a wall.  In fact, you can't put a Door anywhere else BUT a wall.

Once it's placed, you can use the blue Temporary Dimensions to place it exactly.

There should be absolutely no reason to use an Elevation, Reference Lines, or Model Lines

Can't argue with your point about topo surfaces.  That's been one of the weakest things in Revit since day 1

[Scott_D_]

This isn't a solution but for No 2 why did you do the 2D linework in AutoCAD instead of Revit?

[Anonymous]

@dplumb_BWBR Thanks for the info! I'll go on the Revit forum and continue this thread there.

I'll clarify the angled wall snap issue: I just created a new architectural project in Revit 2018. I created a horizontal wall, an angled wall, and a vertical wall. They're all connected, and the angled wall is in between the horizontal and vertical wall. I went to the door button on the ribbon, and when I hover over the horizontal or vertical wall, the door shows flanking dimensions and no snaps. When I mouse over the angled wall, the flanking dimensions disappear, whilst there's no way to snap to the midpoint of any of the three walls. Why would the developers of Revit overlook such a time-saving and ease-of-use function that saves me several clicks? I just want to place an object in its correct location once, and I don't want to place it incorrectly and edit its dimensions later. That's counter-intuitive and involves extra steps that AutoCAD has been bypassing for years. This also applies to windows and components.

Oddly enough, when I clicked the wall button and attempted to place a wall perpendicular to any of the existing walls, I saw midpoint snaps and nearest snaps. Why do these snaps only work with two of the same object family? I want to snap a door, window, or component to specific parts of the wall. I would especially love to snap midway between the middle of the wall and the end of the wall, directly at 1/4 the wall's overall distance. This is impossible without knowing the exact length of the wall or by using reference plane lines.

I can create a short clip of these procedures if my explanation wasn't specific enough, but I assume that 99% of Revit users have experienced my frustration on a daily basis when modeling structures. 

@Scott_D_ Revit has linework? You mean those silly model lines and hidden lines, etc.? Why should I have to trace lines around sidewalks and grass in order to place subregions? After placing those subregions, I would have to delete those model lines. How many extra steps do I need to take in order to create simple geometry? 

My previous job involved taking old 2D AutoCAD drawings, importing them into Revit as an overlay, and tracing over them with Revit families in order to "convert" the old 2D drawings into a comprehensive 3D model. Also, creating complex linework in AutoCAD is much faster and more intuitive than creating lines in Revit. Plus, removing the AutoCAD overlay is easy, while deleting every single Revit guideline is obnoxious and time-consuming. When I assisted a co-worker with her first conversion, I told her to create perfect 2D linework in AutoCAD, and when she was finished, she could import that into Revit and trace over it with subregions, etc. This would ensure that her work was accurate, and this solves the "Subregions don't snap to each other" issue. 

Nevertheless, this work-around demonstrates a lack of basic functionality from a BIM program that's supposed to exceed AutoCAD in terms of information and 3D families. Out of curiosity, how have senior Revit users worked-around similar dilemmas? Am I missing some fundamental component that would erase my concerns?

I'm off to the Revit forum. Thanks a ton for all of your help, @pieter7, @dplumb_BWBR, @Scott_D_.

[Scott_D_]

You could grab all the content in a View, Filter to just the Annotation Lines and then delete en-masse. It's not really time-consuming task.
You could also create a Group and put the linework in there if you wished.
The linework tools in AutoCAD and Revit are actually pretty similar albeit some of the fancy tools are missing.
Linework that is imported into Revit from AutoCAD can actually be pretty inaccurate as it tends to jump around and change shape when you zoom right in. You would probably be best advised to avoid mixing AutoCAD and Revit unless you absolutely must.
I think you might be a little bit biased towards AutoCAD as you are more familiar with the application.

[Anonymous]

@Scott_D_ I agree with your methodology: I've used that "glasses" filter button a ton, and it helps when I need to delete an entire category of objects. Nevertheless, I don't think that forcing users to create "guidelines" via Revit is as effective as allowing subregions and components to snap to each other. 

I also understand what you're talking about regarding importing AutoCAD linework into Revit: The import loses a bit of accuracy, especially when oddly-angled polylines and arcs are imported. Why does Revit import AutoCAD linework inaccurately? Doesn't Autodesk own both programs? Isn't there a way to write code that allows both programs to recognize exact locations relative to each other?

I want all of the "fancy" tools that AutoCAD has to be available on Revit. I don't want to even think of using AutoCAD when I work on a Revit project. I want Revit to completely replace AutoCAD. Even though I've had over ten years of AutoCAD experience (Including Architecture and Civil 3D), I see Revit as a superior program in terms of potential and automatic object generation via information. Your answers demonstrate that you and other Revit "Seniors" have been adapting to Revit's lack of "snappage" by clicking on many other commands in order to create accurate projects. I don't want to click on so many other commands: If I want to place a component somewhere, I want it to be placed in its correct location with one or two clicks, not five or ten.

If I had to compete in a drafting competition again, I would use AutoCAD Architecture merely because I would use less steps to create a floor plan, etc. If I was to use Revit (Which the majority of competitors did in 2017's SkillsUSA National Conference), I would have the advantage of being able to generate elevations and sections quickly, but my components and site plan will take extra time to accurately place as a result of Revit's lack of basic functions in comparison to AutoCAD. Thanks again for all of your feedback.

[Scott_D_]

I’m not referring to the ‘glasses’ filter (temporary hide/isolate), I mean the Filter function that appears on the ribbon under Modify/Multi-select when you select a load of stuff in the view window.

Revit Snaps are adjustable via the Snap Menu under Settings on the ribbon. There is a mid-point option.

Otherwise I agree.

I haven't used the 2018 Site Designer tools myself although I have used the previous Site tools with varying levels of success.

[Anonymous]

@Scott_D_ Ah, I see what you mean. That filter option is nice, and similar to the "glasses" option, yet I wish I didn't have to delete guideline elements after placing "permanent" elements. I just want to create permanent elements and snap them to each other.

Yes, all of my snaps are always turned on, but when I attempt to snap an object to another object, only a few, if any, of my snaps activate. Since I rarely see my snaps activate, I keep all of them turned on in the hopes of utilizing them. In AutoCAD, I can turn on specific snaps that don't interfere with each other according to my purposes (Nearest can interfere with Endpoint and Parallel, for example, so I only turn on one or the other).

In AutoCAD, nearly every single line, arc, block, and 3D object can utilize every single snap. In Revit, certain snaps activate during certain inconvenient and counter-intuitive times. I want my snaps to always activate regardless of which family I'm using or which view I'm in.

Speaking of views: Why can't I use the measure tool in 3D mode? I have to be in a 2D view (Floorplan, elevation, section, etc.) to measure? Why aren't all functions available in the 3D view? I use the 3D view 75% of the time.

[Scott_D_]

There is a way to measure in 3D but you have to do it a certain way, I can't remember how and consequently never do it. Sorry that's not much help.

[pieter7]

You can measure in 3d by using the dimensions but it's only in the active workplace (so not really 3d).

But again, measuring in 3d is one of the highest voted wishlist items on this platform: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/measure-in-3d/idi-p/6336588

I would suggest going through the first pages of the "top voted" ideas and adding your support for the things you'd like to see happen. That weigh you can way in on future development.

Keep in mind that most software packages (even from Autodesk) don't allow voting for wishlist items. Revit even publishes what they are working on for the next release.

[Anonymous]

@Scott_D_ Thanks for trying.

@pieter7 Thanks for showing me that link! I'm checking out all of the top-voted topics. 

What do you mean by "...Don't allow voting for wish list items"? Why would a "software package"/company not allow its customers to provide feedback and take that feedback seriously? Time & Money? Doesn't Autodesk want to have the best and most diverse BIM program on the market? Ideas proposed in the link you shared with me demonstrate how dedicated users of Revit want it to improve and be easier to use. I want to exclusively use Revit for future projects, and I only want to use AutoCAD if it's necessary to do so.

[pieter7]

You're right, listening to the end user is important. All I wanted to say is that the Revit team tries really hard to gather feedback from everyone. This idea platform is a good example of that.

Even in 2018, there are still a lot of programs that don't have a good organized feedback structure. For example, there is no (official) place where you can vote up wishlist items for Autocad 🙂 (as far as I know).

[lionel.kai]

@AnonymousBTW, I use the Filter tool all the time when modifying elements (in conjunction with temp hide/isolate) - it's more than just "nice".  Also, there are various third-party add-ins that can make it even more powerful (by selecting types, etc.). It's worth taking the time to learn it's strengths and weaknesses (and integrate it into your "toolkit").

And even though it won't help with your door example, there are snap overrides (in right-click menu and keyboard shortcuts; "SM" for midpoint, etc.) that can help when Revit isn't picking what you want by default (sometimes Tab gets you there, too).

Regarding your doors - don't you eventually dimension them on your plan anyway? Once the dimensions are there, you can just use them for positioning, so it's not really an extra step (just different order).

When I first switched over to Revit, there were so many things that annoyed me because AutoCAD "did it better" (like drawing circles - just press "c" instead of finding the tool within the Detail Line command). But over the years I've learned different ways of doing things - it requires a mindset shift - the process is different, not just the tools (for example, I realized that I rarely actually need circles - just use the temp dims instead). It makes it really hard to switch back and forth, because to do the "same thing" sometimes requires completely different tools & steps in each program (to do it the best/efficient way).

That said, I'm still frustrated with Revit's unrealized potential (seen in the thousands of ideas here). For example, even after a "text overhaul", why do we still need to continue using AutoCAD for general notes?!? (roman numeral list type, hanging indent, and custom tab stops (for Text), Strikethrough text formatting, etc.).

[Anonymous]

@lionel.kai Thanks for your advice. Yes, Revit definitely has a different process, and some of its procedures are more efficient than any CAD program I've used. I hope that those text options you wrote about are integrated into Revit ASAP.

I'll research some 3rd party add-ons, and hopefully my workplace will approve of their use. Maybe someone made a "midway between two points" add-on. 

Yes, I use snap overrides, and as you stated, they don't appear when different families are interacting with each other. I know it's tough to program a simple command for hundreds of different components, but If AutoCAD can do it, Revit should be able to (Eventually) do it better.

I do dimension and modify the location of my doors via those dimensions, but I'd still like to place a door in its proper location before dimensioning. You're right, I should just get used to placing objects and using dimensions to finalize their location, since I need to place those dimensions anyhow. 

I have to switch between AutoCAD Civil 3D and Revit on a weekly basis, so I've had to find efficient ways of producing content on both programs. One of the largest barriers that Revit has seemingly created via its functions is the fact that new users are required to "forget" many procedures that they're used to performing in AutoCAD. I wish that Revit kept most of the efficient procedures that AutoCAD contains to make circles, text, etc., while at the same time, I understand that it's essential to create a new workflow for many BIM functions. There's a rational reason why Revit works the way it does, right?

[pieter7]

The reason why some of the basic features don't match with Autocad (for example how you make a circle) is that Revit developed separately from Autocad, and was only bought by Autodesk when the main features (and its user base) was already developed. 

Changing these basic behaviors now would upset the existing userbase. Not to mention the development time it would cost to redo basic behavior. As you can see there's thousands of ideas to make Revit better on this platform, but aligning Revit functionality with Autocad has not been voted up as a priority. I too would rather have new Revit functionality (like the mid between two points snap and the 3d measure ) then changing basic features to align more with Autocad 🙂 

[Anonymous]

@pieter7 Yeah, I did some research regarding Revit's history. I know that "it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks", and in this case, it's hard to tell thousands of senior Revit users to change some of their procedures. However, I feel and think that Revit users would love to be able to click less and do more with a program that has become the new modeling standard.

Sadly, there are certain physical roadblocks that hinder the "improvement" of Revit in terms of its programming and code. I don't know much about programming or coding, but I can sympathize with Revit developers when they respond to concerns such as ours with similar answers: "Revit was developed independently, and it's too time-consuming to change every single component's settings to allow them to (For example) snap to one another, or to implement a 'midway between two points' command. We're sorry that you're too used to CAD programs and that BIM is 'newer'".

While I remain sympathetic, I hope that time and effort is put into re-wiring Revit in such a manner that compromises both sides of the coin: I want senior users to continue to enjoy their workflow, yet I want that workflow to become "better". Since Revit users are mostly unanimous in regards to the implementation of many commands that are found in CAD programs, There should be a feasible way to edit the code and include these features. I never want to go on Revit forums and see complaints from new users that state how Revit is a program that "overlooked" obvious features that CAD programs contain. I want Revit to be the best program that does what CAD programs can do times two.