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Stair handrail issue

17 ANTWORTEN 17
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Nachricht 1 von 18
Keith_Wilkinson
13338 Aufrufe, 17 Antworten

Stair handrail issue

Please see attached images and file.  Now before I start I know this is not the best designed handrail in the world however space is such that this is how it has to be.

 

in the first image you see the half landing, because the handrail is meeting at 90deg Revit can't create a smooth connection and as a result the resulting section view (not uploaded) looks a bit rubbish.

 

Int he past I've found adding a radius to the corner helps this issue, however as you can see in the second image this works at the upper corner but it goes even more wrong at the lower corner where Revit has decided, randomly it appears, to add in an additional short flat section and it still doesn't connect correctly.

 

can anyone shed any light on how to tidy this up at all?  

 

I have to say of all the things in revit that frustrate me stairs and handrails are probably top of the list... 

 

Cheers

 

K.



"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
Maimonides
Tags (2)
17 ANTWORTEN 17
Nachricht 2 von 18
rodrigo.bezerra
als Antwort auf: Keith_Wilkinson

Hi Keith,

 

I'm always struggling with stairs handrails. And I always regret to enter the struggle... Lachender Smiley

 

That said, the only (and obvious) question I can make is: have tried to modify the Angled Joins and Tangent Joins type paremeters?

 

Unfortunately it's all I can think for this matter.

 

Regards

Rodrigo Bezerra

EESignature

Nachricht 3 von 18
Keith_Wilkinson
als Antwort auf: rodrigo.bezerra

Alas those settings seem to make no difference in this instance... Smiley (traurig)



"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
Maimonides
Nachricht 4 von 18
ennujozlagam
als Antwort auf: Keith_Wilkinson

hi, is there anyways you can post your stair so we can check or send to me thru my email/pm. thanks





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Please mark this response as "Accept as Solution" if it answers your question. Kudos gladly accepted.
Nachricht 5 von 18
Keith_Wilkinson
als Antwort auf: ennujozlagam

Hi,

 

I should be available as a link on the original post.

 

Cheers

 

K.



"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
Maimonides
Nachricht 6 von 18
Alisder.Brown
als Antwort auf: Keith_Wilkinson

Keith

 

***edit... forgot to attach the images.. DOH!***

 

A lot of the issues people have with railing is usually down to how the sketch path is created. As with this case.

Revit is great, but falls short some places (railing being one of them) but once you understand the "why" it makes it much easier to figure out. Because the sketch segment is going from a slope to a flat 90deg angle, its too complicated (in most cases) for Revit to compute, so it breaks the rail (as the warning message says) So, if you edit the sketch of that rail, and simply "split" the sketch line at the landings then it makes Revit's job much easier.

see attached images, i have sketched a red line where i use the "split element" tool to split the railing sketch.

 

It may not be the exact desired outcome in 3D but there are no breaks and sections/details look good.

 

hope this helps :leicht_lächelndes_Gesicht:

Alisder Brown
Senior BIM Coordinator
Scotland, UK

Nachricht 7 von 18
Keith_Wilkinson
als Antwort auf: Alisder.Brown

I see what you have done.

 

In this instance however the architect is looking for the handrail to slope upwards on the landing.  Personally I think it's a terrible detail but I'm tasked with finding the best way of making that arrangment to work in Revit.  I'll play around with this idea a bit more though and see what comes out.

 

thanks for taking the time to look at it.

 

K.



"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
Maimonides
Nachricht 8 von 18
Alisder.Brown
als Antwort auf: Keith_Wilkinson

Keith

 

Always the Architect :@ haha

 

Id recommend just using the solution so it is a continuous rail and looks "decent" in 3D and just change the 2D details. It will save you a shed load of time.

 

If not, then use a model-in-place sweep using the underside of the stairs as the path and draw the profile of the rail whatever offset you require.

 

Good luck :leicht_lächelndes_Gesicht:

Alisder Brown
Senior BIM Coordinator
Scotland, UK

Nachricht 9 von 18
Keith_Wilkinson
als Antwort auf: Alisder.Brown

Yeah, that's kinda where we're at. 

 

TBH this is mostly and exercise for me from a purists point of view.  Really just trying to establish how far Revit can go.

 

Personally I think until they introduce 3D stair path editing there are always going to be significant limitations with this unfortunately.



"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
Maimonides
Nachricht 10 von 18
Keith_Wilkinson
als Antwort auf: Keith_Wilkinson

Once again I find myself back in the realms of handrails on stairs and once again I'm tearing my hair out... Of all the tools in revit this is definitely the one that is likely to drive me to insanity - IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!!!  Period.

 

Please please please, Revit Developers - someone take this under your wing, make it a pet project, and fix it so that it works!!!



"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
Maimonides
Nachricht 11 von 18
RDAOU
als Antwort auf: Keith_Wilkinson

@Keith_Wilkinson They wont fix it cuz it works ...

(I will do it on the file you attached once I get home - I ve got only 2014 here :verwirrtes_Gesicht: )

One just need to adapt the right rail to the right stair. Example: The OOTB rail would never adapt to the stair flights you got in the attached Revit..Ideally the rail on the landing shouldnt be slooped. It is slopped because of the last step on the 1st flight is aligned with the 1st step of the 2nd flight. If you go to the section on the landing and measure it you ll  find that this alignment of risers is creating this 1 riser difference in height in the handrail. Three ways to fix this (...there are other ways though but those are my preferences) -

 

  1. Edit the path to extend the rail onto the landing to kill the height difference between the first and second flight and get a straight rail parallel to the landing (parallel to the floor)
  2. If you are too tight on the landing then the alternative to the above would be to fake a step which is embeded in the landing. The result is the same steps you got +2 but the 2 additional steps are embeded ie:  somewhat part of the landing...this would align the height of end point of the rail when it reach the landing from the first flight, with the height of Rail start where it takes off onto the 2nd flight.
  3. Create a custom made adaptive rail and do not use the OOTB ones (See video below)

 

 

Case 1 and 2 give you the following results. First image is a combination of both 1 and 2 in order to reduce extension of the rail on to the landing. Second image is purely case 2 (Revit OOTB rail would never connect 1st flight rail to 2nd flight rail at this small distance if risers were aligned)

FalseStep2.png

 

 

FalseStep.png

 

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Nachricht 12 von 18
Keith_Wilkinson
als Antwort auf: RDAOU

Firstly, thanks for going to such an effort. 

 

My post today was not in relation to the original post, it was a different issue, I'm not looking for a solution but if I get a chance I'll record a video showing the problem. 

 

In in answer to your first point though I have to disagree and I know I'm not alone. HandrailS on stairs in Revit are a complete PITA. Period. I could give you countless examples of how they fail and go wrong. 

 

Your adaptive componeent solution looks looks interesting and worth pursuing but it's arguably a pretty advanced option beyond the reach of your average user and that's who I have to work with. 



"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
Maimonides
Nachricht 13 von 18
RDAOU
als Antwort auf: Keith_Wilkinson

Keith; I respect your opinion but personally I believe that the OOTB rails in revit are really meant for the ideal situation...you cant make an exception and expect Revit to apply the best case scenario on it... Example is the stair uploaded in the original post.

 

1. alignment of last and first step on the landing (This is not ideal)

2. the sloped handrail on the landing (indicates error in step/riser calculations or stair geometry - if I get this rail on site I would fire the one who did it starting from supervising engineer down to the welder...well a good welder never does that; engineers do)

3. The number of riser count vs step width vs flight number in that file are more like for an attic and not a normal stair (way outside the norms)

 

If thats how one wants the stair to be then one cant go for OOTB Handrail and most definitly OOTB Stair to start with...you need adaptive stairs and handrails 

YOUTUBE | BIM | COMPUTATIONAL DESIGN | PARAMETRIC DESIGN | GENERATIVE DESIGN | VISUAL PROGRAMMING
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Nachricht 14 von 18
rosskirby
als Antwort auf: RDAOU

To be fair, Keith is correct.  Regardless of whether you're using OOTB or custom railings, the transition from sloped to flat to sloped, or continuously sloping, as the railing rounds a corner at a landing just doesn't clean up well.  Sure, there are workarounds for making it look right in plan and section/elevation, but it's just not quite there yet as a tool.  If you can offset your stair runs by one tread depth to get the sloped railing to level out before it turns the corner, then it all works out great, but we don't always have that much room to work with.

 

In some cases, we've resorted to breaking the railing into three pieces and custom modifying the slope and height of the U-shaped segment that rounds the corner.  However, we would only do that where the railing is going to show up in a 3D view or rendering.

Ross Kirby
Principal
Dynamik Design
www.dynamikdesign.com
Nachricht 15 von 18
RDAOU
als Antwort auf: rosskirby

@rosskirby  I'm not tweaking nor am I twisting anything to get the desired output from the tool! I'm just following rules and standards which have been there long before CAD and Revit. Try to use the Rule of Thumb on a scratch paper and you ll get what I mean...if that doesn't work call in the carpenter and the welder...I do that quite often when something doesn't work by the book and their advise does wonders on Revit.

 

PS: And in the example above I neither offset the steps, nor changed the design/layout nor added extra risers; I switched off the Revit offered start/end with riser (Which is not meant to be used for concrete stairs the first place) and used my own thread (embeded) + its riser 

 

 

But hey! look at the bright side; long time back before CAD, people did design and/or execute stuff which are...^***&%%; the only difference between those days and today is that back then there was no software to blame so they used to blame the Architect; today they still blame the Architect but the Architect blames revit lol

YOUTUBE | BIM | COMPUTATIONAL DESIGN | PARAMETRIC DESIGN | GENERATIVE DESIGN | VISUAL PROGRAMMING
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Nachricht 16 von 18
Anonymous
als Antwort auf: rosskirby

broken rail.png

 

I'm experiencing issues similar to what you have described. Revit just doesn't like it when i try to go round a corner. I've tried so many different fixes for this but can't seem to get it. I know this thread is years old but does anyone have any advice for this?

Nachricht 17 von 18
Anonymous
als Antwort auf: Keith_Wilkinson

Just writing a page about these turns going from tangent handrail to cad and how to get the flow here.

Not a one click solution but hopefully helps.

 

https://knostairs.com/kno-how/draw-stairs/tangent-handrail-versus-cad/

Nachricht 18 von 18
Mohamed-Nassar
als Antwort auf: rodrigo.bezerra

https://www.autodesk.com/autodesk-university/class/Handrail-Hacks

I recommend this class for you sir, this will help you more to solve your problem.

Best regards,,

 

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Mohamed Nassar , ACP, Autodesk Ambassador Gold
BIM Support / Structure Modeler

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