PLEASE(!) fix the orbit pivot point behavior sooner rather than later

[kb9ydn]

In Solidworks I tend to use the orbit and zoom features a lot while modelling, especially with larger models.  With Fusion though the orbit behavior is really quite bad sometimes because the pivot point is nowhere near what you are looking at on the screen.  So when you try to orbit you get mostly just a pan.  And for some reason the pivot location is never consistent which means you never know exactly what will happen when you try to orbit.  This is a major annoyance and really slows you down with larger models.

Furthermore, setting the pivot point with the <shift>+MMB double click is a bad solution for 3 reasons:

1) If you double click too fast you get a zoom to model

2) since you have to double click slower it's awkward and slower (obviously)

3) it doesn't work at all with the Solidworks orbit/pan/zoom setup because <shift>+MMB is for zoom

How it *should* work is this:

If the entire model is visible on the screen the orbit pivot point should always be at the geometric center of the model.  If you are zoomed in such that the entire model is not visible, the pivot point should be set to the point on the surface of the model directly under the mouse cursor when the MMB is pressed.  This method is fast, predictable, and is compatible with all of the shortcut key setups.  There is also no chance you will accidentally get another command instead.

I've seen changes to the orbit behavior brought up a number of times in the idea station (and I've voted for some of them) but they never seem to go anywhere.  Maybe people just don't think of it as a significant issue, but seeing how orbit/pan/zoom is fundamental to the use of Fusion in general, I'm somewhat baffled that more people don't complain about this.

C|

[kb9ydn]

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@TrippyLighting wrote:

Actually, the most universal tool I've come across that makes this a total non-topic across all CAD apps that I know is a 3D Connexion space mouse/navigator/space pilot.

It's a one time investment and for most users, once you have worked with it you'll miss it if you don't have it.

Except in Blender where I find it useless 😉

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So I picked up a used Space Explorer on eBay to mess around with.  I have to say, for SWX it's everything the hype said it would be.  I did have to fiddle with the settings a bit to decrease the sensitivity, but after about 5 minutes of working with it, it feels very natural.

Unfortunately it's still not great with Fusion.  It's better than just a mouse/trackball, but the orbit pivot point is still unpredictable.  In SWX the pivot point is constantly updating automatically which makes for very smooth and intuitive 3D manipulation.  Fusion still feels clunky and slow.

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[Phil.E]

That is not my experience at all. Can you post a video? For spacemouse, there is no pivot point. You just fly around. I'd like to understand better where it's falling down for you.

[kb9ydn]

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@Phil.E wrote:

That is not my experience at all. Can you post a video? For spacemouse, there is no pivot point. You just fly around. I'd like to understand better where it's falling down for you.

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It's possible there is some setting I need to fiddle with yet.  I'll start another thread though since this one is more specific to mouse/trackball navigation.

C|

[Onion7]

The issue stated by the OP is only one I find annoying on a day to day basis. I use a 3D Connexion Spacemouse. The problem is, when zoomed in close to a part and the spacemouse is twisted for orbit action, the orbit point seems to be some point quite in the distance behind the object in the center of the screen. The result is that the parts in the foreground move very rapidly with any slightest touch of the mouse. 

I do not understand why Fusion360 cannot dynamically change its orbit point(origin) to any closest object in the center of the screen. This should be so simple and would drastically improve user experience. Currently the workaround is to click the Orbit button at the bottom of the window and set the orbit point on the part. However this changes to a random point after a few changes are made to the model. Not helpful at all.

Another glitch is that when trying to zoom in close to a part with the spacemouse, sometimes the zoom slows and actually stops for a few seconds before continuing. On the other hand, if I use the scroll wheel to zoom, it corrects the glitch and spacemouse can subsequently properly zoom. I have a feeling it is related to the distant random orbit origin during use of the spacemouse. 

Please resolve these issues!

Thank you.

[Phil.E]

I just realized that I failed to link this post with the other one that @kb9ydn put up.

There is a nice video showing the proposed solution, in it's current state.

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/design-validate-document/orbit-pivot-point-is-still-weird-when-using-3...

[Onion7]

Thanks for the link to post!

It took you quite some time to realize the issue users are experiencing while the rest of us were scratching our heads trying to figure out how to make you understand the very obvious problem.

Your proposed solution is not a solution, it is a workaround and is very cumbersome and inconvenient.

If you expect to take users from SDWKS, this issue has to be fixed.

It makes Fusion360 a pain to use with large models!

I am looking forward with great anticipation to the fix in an upcoming release!!

[Phil.E]

Thanks for the comments!

This is the way conversations work. You bring us concerns and we work to understand them. I'm glad we finally see eye to eye on this. My own problem in this thread was the fact that I have never used SW (lots of people haven't and aren't bothered at all by the orbit behavior). Naturally I had no idea what you all were talking about until someone took the time to show me. @kb9ydn should be thanked for that! (Thank you @kb9ydn!)

I am a little confused by your comments. These seem to be opposite in meaning. Hopefully you can clarify.

You say "Your proposed solution is not a solution, it is a workaround and is very cumbersome and inconvenient."

Also "I am looking forward with great anticipation to the fix in an upcoming release!!"

Did you watch this video? Do you think this will help?

[PhilProcarioJr]

@Phil.E

The movement in the video is an improvement IMO but it's not lending itself to a faster work flow.

Case in point, why do we have to tell it this is the focal point why not just make whatever is selected the focal point and if nothing is selected then the origin is the focal point.

All these extra clicks lend to wasted time and a sore wrist.

Your students don't complain because they have not had a boss breathing down their neck telling them that they are costing the company money and this design needs to be finished a week ago. Every extra click is a bump in productivity and creativity, both equal lost time and money. Also if navigation irritates a user then that frustration will equal more lost time and creativity which will end in a lost customer. You say you haven't heard many complaints but every SolidWorks user I have talked to (more then 30) that have tried Fusion all complain about the orbit.

Here is a video:

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/community/screencast/c486e1bb-cccf-4205-b26f-d58b6b6cbe8d

Personally I love Fusion I just wish things like orbit worked better...

Just my 2 cents

[PhilProcarioJr]

As you will see in the video I don't have to select anything or click on anything, whatever is highlighted under the cursor becomes the pivot point.

Also wherever the cursor is, is where a zoom in and zoom out happens..that is a huge time saver.

[kb9ydn]

Hi Phil,

Going back and reading my initial post about this I can see where maybe my initial comments weren't perfectly clear.  What is shown in your video is a step in the right direction (and technically does solve the issues I brought up) but it's still not really what we're looking for *.

What we're looking for the orbit to do is exactly this: (this assumes use of a mouse/trackball)

Press and hold middle mouse button.  If the entire model is displayed on the screen, the pivot point will be the geometric center of the model.  If any of the model is off screen, the pivot point is AUTOMATICALLY set to whatever is directly under the mouse cursor.

Drag mouse to orbit.

There are only two actions required for any orbit; a click and a drag.  I also capitalized "automatically" because I'm not sure that point has gotten across yet.  The automatic part is absolutely crucial for this to work smoothly.  Being able to manually set the pivot point might be nice for some situations, but having it set automatically (without even thinking about it) is what brings it to the next level.  The automatic part is also essential for using the 3DConnexion devices the way they are intended to be used.

I posted this in the other thread but I'll post it here as well.  If you have a 3D mouse and want to experience what I've been talking about with all of this, load up the 3Dconnexion Viewer that's included in the Demos from the 3Dconnexion drivers.  That is exactly how the orbit in Fusion should work.

So I'm *really* hoping that being able to manually set the orbit pivot point is just phase 1, and phase 2 is making it automatic. 

C|

* Honestly it took me awhile to figure this out myself.  I'm so used to the way SWX handles orbiting that I hadn't ever thought about what it was actually doing.  But now that I understand it I appreciate it even more, especially since not all 3D modelling software does it this way.

[PhilProcarioJr]

@kb9ydn

I thought that's what I showed.

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

[kb9ydn]

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@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

As you will see in the video I don't have to select anything or click on anything, whatever is highlighted under the cursor becomes the pivot point.

Also wherever the cursor is, is where a zoom in and zoom out happens..that is a huge time saver.

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The zoom origin in SWX is interesting because it does different things depending on how you activate it.  If you use the mouse scroll wheel it behaves like you describe where the origin is at the mouse pointer.  But if you do a <shift> + <MMB> + drag, the middle of the screen is used.  I don't normally use the scroll wheel to zoom so I'm used to the zoom origin being the center of the screen, but I can see the usefulness of a variable origin.  I just don't think it would work so great with click+drag zooming.

Anyway, zooming in Fusion seems to be ok.

C|

[kb9ydn]

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@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

@kb9ydn

I thought that's what I showed.

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

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No problem at all.  I was typing still while you were posting so I didn't see you're replies.  All input is welcomed!

C|

[Onion7]

Hi Phil. Thanks for your reply. The reason I said your proposed solution in the video is not a solution is because it requires three clicks of a mouse to orbit on a specific part when the program should automatically/dynamically fix the orbit point on the closest object in the center of the screen. It is very cumbersome to do when working in a large model. Try it yourself. It really becomes a pain when zooming in close to a small part in a large model. It becomes VERY touchy and hard to control, necessitating the three mouse clicks to fix the prbit point on a part which is very inconvenient.

You asked; "Did you watch this video? Do you think this will help?" No it doesn't help because that is what I already do, just slightly different. I have to click on the orbit button at the bottom of the screen, select a part and hit Escape.

This is not "fixing the orbit point behavior" as the OP requested. All you have to do is say something like "I understand the problem and will definitely talk to the dev. team about it." (Maybe "making the comments visible is as far as you can go?)

There seems to be an unwillingness/slowness to get to that point and instead ingnoring the requests of users by giving the impression that;

(a.) we don't know how to use Fusion360,

(b.) Fusion360 is fine the way it works and needs no further improvements, or,

(c.) we need to adapt to Fusion360 and accept it the way it is.

This last is very evident by your statement in a previous post; "I appreciate your point of view however, just because adapting to a tool is far easier than forcing the tool to adapt to you. It's like I tell my Inventor students when I'm teaching at night, they all are learning SWX and ACAD and Inventor at the same time: "If you use the scroll wheel to zoom, and it gets smaller instead of bigger, scroll the other direction". I've never heard complaints about orbit modes from them. They just learn the tools and don't even wonder about it. It just "is". (Here you suggest professional users be like beginners and just get used to what "is.")

This is not an issue of users not being able to use Fusion360, this is a problem with the program itself. It has a inherent problem (not us) limiting its usefulness and needs to be changed! I thought that the Fusion360 team was dedicated to make the most user friendly productive CAD software and it doesn't seem that you are listening. This is not the progressive attitude a team should have when trying make a better product than anyone else!

I have only once seen a friend using SW at ElectroImpact in Seattle (never used it myself) and by watching it noticed the difference. I didn't have to use SW first to notice the orbit problems, it is self-evident if you use Fusion360 on larger projects! I also use Sketchup Pro extensively for construction documents and it does not have this orbiting problem that Fusion360 has. This is an issue that serious/pro users are having who use it on a daily basis, not the beginners. 

How do you expect to attract users from SW if you make Fusion360 suitable for beginners but not efficient for the serious/pro users?

Hopefully you will get serious and talk to the dev. team about this issue. I look forward to the fix to this problem.

[Phil.E]

I think there is some misunderstanding here. I should apologize.

When I bring my own experiences to this forum, I am not speaking for the Fusion product team or Autodesk. I am speaking to you as another user. I try to point this out but clearly I'm leaving the wrong impression. My apologies. Autodesk, the Fusion 360 team, and I, are listening to you and bringing your point of view to the table every day.

Let me clear the air about the current state of Orbit as I'm testing it. That video shows the behavior of 3D connexion only, and was made for that discussion.

With a mouse and keyboard:

• (Model extends beyond screen) Middle mouse button down =  sets center of rotation and begins rotate.
• (Model entirely on screen) Middle mouse button down = center of model is pivot and begins rotate.
• This is SW mode. Fusion mode gets the same behavior with shift+MMB.

This should be most of what you are asking for. 

This discussion has driven our development of the new orbit framework. You and I and many others have been part of this discussion, and it's an open discussion that is still ongoing. Please note, we aren't yet done with Orbit, and will keenly listen to your feedback once this gets into your hands. Looking forward to continuing this thread.

Sincerely,

[Onion7]

Phil, I need to clarify that all my statements apply to orbiting using 3D Connexion products, not keyboard/mouse.

Thanks for your interest and steps in the right direction. I and other users are looking forward to the fix.

[haughec]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a User Experience Architect responsible for some upcoming changes to Fusion's Orbit behavior.  I'll start by stating that we agree that our Orbit behavior needs improvement, and we're well into a project to improve the way it works.

This thread began with concerns regarding mouse navigation.  That's what we're currently focused on improving now, and that's what I'll speak to below.  I suggest that we capture conversations regarding 3D Mouse navigation in kb9ydn's post here.

The problems we're trying to address:

• Fusion relies heavily on users to select the center point for Orbit operations (by clicking Shift + Middle Mouse).  If you don't set the pivot point (or don't know to set it), Fusion's Orbit behavior can feel unpredictable - especially when zoomed in.
• What's worse is that this shortcut is not available in our SolidWorks navigation mode.
  

What we're doing to address them:

• First & foremost, we're revising the Orbit behavior to be more intuitive & predictable without the need to manually set a pivot point.  The intended behavior follows closely to kb9ydn's initial post in this thread:
  • When the entire model is visible on the screen, Orbit will pivot about the center of the model.
  • When zoomed in, Orbit will pivot about the closest point to the cursor when the Middle Mouse button is pressed.
• In the event that the above behavior doesn't resolve Orbit predictability completely, we're also going to provide the ability to set a pivot point manually in all navigation modes (Including SolidWorks nav mode).  This is the behavior that Phil demonstrates earlier in this thread.  This Set/Reset Pivot behavior may be revised slightly from what you see in the video, but will likely be available from the context menu.

Timeframe:

Hang in there!  We have an initial implementation that we're testing now, and we're expecting to release it in coming months (if not weeks...).  We'll be looking forward to feedback once the new behavior is available.

Thanks again for all of your input.

Charles

[kb9ydn]

This is great news!  I'll be very much looking forward to testing this out!

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[kb9ydn]

Alright, so I've been playing around with the new orbit behavior (using a standard mouse/trackball) and I'm liking where it's going.  With the entire model visible it uses the approximate geometric center, which is exactly what you would expect.  At medium zoom levels (with some of the model off screen) it picks the object closest to the mouse pointer to pivot about, usually anyway.  Occasionally it doesn't quite get it and picks an object a bit further away.  It's close though and far better than before.  But at high levels of zoom it almost never picks the closest object, but instead it picks some point in space that might be close to the nearest object (or not), but not the object itself.  It's better than before but needs some tweaking still.

In summary, it's a great first attempt which I'm sure will get better with time.

C|

[haughec]

Thanks for the feedback!!

The pivot point is very predictable when Orbit is invoked while your cursor is over model geometry (we just calculate the intersection point).  The pivot point is less predictable when your cursor is over empty space (we have to go find the nearest bit of model geometry).  We may be able to refine that behavior.  In the meantime, I'm glad to hear that it's working better for you.

Charles