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Ability to modify and delete system parameters

Ability to modify and delete system parameters

This problem exists with system parameters across all categories, but I'll explain with doors as an example:

 

There are several door system (built-in) parameters that are instance but should be type parameters and we cannot modify them to change them to type parameters:

 

Frame Type

Frame Material

Finish

 

Currently these parameters are instance parameters so when we create a schedule it's very tedious to fill out the values for each of these parameters for each door instance.  Most of the time we set up different door types for different door finishes, frame types and frame materials.

 

We have a similar problem with project parameters for doors that should be type instead of instance:

Head

Jamb

Sill

 

Since the parameters cannot be modified, we create entirely new parameters for these same properties just to make them type instead of instance!  For Head, Jamb and Sill it's not so bad because we can delete the original ones that came built-in after we've made corresponding type based versions.  

 

The biggest problem comes in with FRAME TYPE, FRAME MATERIAL, FINISH because they cannot be deleted.  So even if we make type based project parameters for "Frame Type 2", "Frame Material 2" and "Finish 2", since we can't delete the original system parameters, it makes for a very messy and confusing Revit file with extra parameters that are essentially the same, just one is type and the other is instance.  Then we have to somehow communicate to everyone which one to use.  

 

When creating a schedule, there is no indication of which parameters are system parameters vs. project parameters vs. family parameters vs. shared parameters.  You could have seemingly identical parameters (named identically) for each of these four different parameter types and have no way to distinguish the difference between them when you're in the schedule interface adding fields to a schedule.

16 Comments
Bramvdouwelant
Contributor

I am building family's at the moment where i only use shared parameters, for consistency in my nested-family's. Now i'm keeping all this parameters in my models (example: Height, Width, Thickness) that i'm not using to control anything. This is confusing for users who try to modify my nested family's

 

Bram

Revit LT 2017 User

 

Tags (8)
fabiosato
Mentor

Another option would be a checkbox to make them invisible in the project environment.

dplumb_BWBR
Advisor

Ditto Fire Rating

That should also be an Instance

prg.tojei
Explorer

Switch Family Category. Then you can delete or modify them.

cbBJLX4
Explorer

You do realize that you're talking about a door , which is not a system family. you could just go and edit the family and under properties modify them from from type to instance. But for those parameters I do believe that they should be type parameters and not instance. It kind of defeats the purpose in having multiple types of doors. But probably this is your intent. 

BethanyPritchard
Enthusiast

I realize doors are component families, but they are still controlled by system parameters.  System parameters are any parameters that are built into the Revit code....something we cannot change.  SO that is my idea - I want those parameters to be type parameters instead of instance parameters - but because they are system parameters we cannot modify them. 

cbBJLX4
Explorer

I had to open one door family to check it's parameters. Indeed the parameters that control dimensions aren't editable, but like many parameters those can be ignored. You need to create a new set to control dimension and assign them to the geometry. 

I had this issue with the Fire rating. It's a system type parameter and wasn't found in all the families I needed. What I had to do was to create a new fire rating parameter and assign it to multiple categorizes and assign it to multiple categories. 

For the door should be similar. Is it a new door family you want to create or an existing one ? 

 

BethanyPritchard
Enthusiast

I was referring to the parameters:

 

Frame Type

Frame Material

Finish

Head

Jamb

Sill

 

These system parameters are defined in the project (or project template), not the door family.

 

I realize that we can create new parameters in the family that can be type parameters (and this is what we have done) but then when that family is loaded into a project we have duplicate parameters for the same information/data because we can't delete the original system parameters that we are no longer using.  It's messy and confusing for the end user because they can't tell which parameter they should be using.  Schedules get confusing too.

 

Also this issue is not isolated to doors, I used doors as an example, but the BIG PICTURE point I'm trying to make is that our inability to modify or delete system parameters (regardless of what category they are associated with) is a problem.

cbBJLX4
Explorer

I know It gets messy, and indeed is very annoying. Autodesk was saying that in the last iteration of Revit ( 2019 ) they finally took user input into account and granted some of our wishes. Didn't get very deep into it yet, but I hope this is one of the wishes they decided to grant. Taking into account that users had been complaining about this before. 

I think so far the only thing that can be done is strict management and control over scheduling and parameter use. 

alenxialee
Explorer

I agree to we should able to change build-in parameter from type to instant or vice versa.

 

build-in parameter gives us a lot of headache for having duplicated parameters in our office.

wr.marshall
Advisor

When you start a new door family it shows this list (see screen shot below ) in the "family types" Under Dimensions there is parameters that cannot be deleted or be renamed. An example would be the one called height.  Does this refer to the (1) top edge of the frame trim (2) Top of wall opening (3) Top Of Panel.... basically height of what?

 

Another example is the rough width/height parameters. For purpose this refers to the wall opening dimensions, however maybe I would prefer to have these parameters labelled as wall opening width/height.

 

Now I know that I as the "family creator" can determine what these parameters are, but if I don't want to use one of the default parameters, I should be able to delete them. It also automatically puts these "dimensions" if I say start a generic model and change the family type to a door family.

 

non delete parameters.jpg

rathore.drift
Participant

+1 to this... and is it possible to save these default dimensions in a doc file? Is it even possible to export in any format because if it is and its not in my preferred format, I can always use utilities such as Doc Converter: https://www.coolutils.com/TotalDocConverter

aaronrumple
Enthusiast

The frame parameters are nothing but shared parameters someone at the factory stuck in there (Way, way way back in pre-ADSK days.)

Yes, ADSK should have more explicit parameters in families.
Panel Right Width

Panel Right Height

Panel Right Thickness

Panel Left Width

Panel Left Height

Panel Left Thickness

Door Width

Door Height

Rough Opening Width

Rough Opening Height

Head Detail

Jamb Detail

Sill Detail

Frame Material

Frame Finish

Panel Core Material

Panel Veneer Material

Panel Finish

Hardware Group

...etc, etc.
No reason everything the industry needs couldn't be in there at the start.

casquatch
Collaborator

Some of these parameters, like "Frame Material" for instance, are not even setup in a proper way. The parameter is NAMED with "Material" but it is a Text parameter. It shouldn't be grouped in it's current location (under Materials and Finishes), serves no apparent purpose and IF someone wanted to use it, it would be better served as a Type parameter (and in another grouping). 

 

Does anyone at Autodesk even know why some of these are in existence anymore or what their purpose is? If we had some actual reason that they are still floating around wreaking havoc on standards and best practices, it might help a bit.

 

Let us move or remove them!

sam.cheng.thtce
Explorer

Come on, it has been 5 years.
WE NEED THIS!

eramoy
Contributor

It would also be nice to be able to change type parameters to instance parameters in system families.

 

Railing extensions are a built-in parameter that would be great if you could make it instance. In this case the problem is 2-fold. They are type-based within the Handrail Type family and the Handrail Type parameter is type-based within the Railing family. So you end up with at least 4 Handrail Types: no extensions, top extensions, bottom extensions, and top and bottom extensions, AND the corresponding 4 Railing types. Have fun keeping your balusters or rail structure the same in every type.

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