Working with and without vault

[MikeKovacik4928]

Hi All

Opinions needed here.

I am now working in Vault for almost 4 months.

In my 10 years with Inventor this is only the 2nd time with vault, the first time about 7 years ago for a short 

period of less than a year.

It seems to have a lot of nice features, but it is very time consuming and sometimes very slow.

Where I am now, it is definitely here to stay, I am just wanting opinions of people who have worked 

in both scenarios, with and without vault.

What do you find have been the advantage and disadvantages of working with Vault.

Do the Advantages outweigh the disadvantages?

I am tending to think that they do.

Mike Kovacik

Inventor Pro 2020

Vault Pro 2020

South Africa

[CGBenner · Accepted solution]

@MikeKovacik4928 

In my last role, before I came to Autodesk, I was the lead designer and Vault Admin for the company I was working for.  When I took on that role several years back, we were using Vault only for "Check in/ check out" functions.  We had been Vault customers since the original product was in Beta.  Even that limited use was a benefit though as it prevented files form getting overwritten or "stepped on" by more than one user editing at a time.  

Over the years, as I learned more (from these forums and from attending AU), I started testing more and more of the features of Vault Pro, and implemented several of them.  By the time I left the company we were using Vault for revision and life cycle control, used Items on our design documents so that we could take advantage of the life cycle watermarks, and had been using ECO's to control all of our design changes since 2013.

Yes, it did slow things down from time to time, and in several cases added a few steps to our workflows.  But (and I believed this even before I became an employee), the benefits far outweighed the added steps... in my opinion.  It can and did also cause headaches from time to time... I won't lie.  But I think that's more because there are so many things that Vault and Inventor can do together, that there is not one single right way to use them.  Everyone has to come up with their own unique plan, and tweak it until it gets you where you want to go.

So... those are my thoughts as someone who worked with Inventor and Vault for a little over 8 years.

[Cadmanto · Accepted solution]

@MikeKovacik4928 

I have been using Inventor for nearly 10 years now at 3 different companies.  In that time, Vault has pretty much been there along its side.  My first company I was using Vault workgroup for the life cycles and revision control.  In my last 2 companies it has been Vault basic.  My last company brought me in to get the 3D modeling started and shown to other engineers.  I implemented Basic since it came free with Inventor.  The problem I had was not in the Vault software, but rather co-workers.  Because they had no training and I did, as much as I tried convincing them it was a necessary tool for the job, they insisted it was more of a pain then a useful tool.  This went down to the IT guy as well, but he was just speaking from a pure management and installation perspective.  I am currently in the process of getting our basic Vault upgraded to workgroup because of the additional benefits of auto part numbering, revision control and life cycles.

I am the only one using Vault in my current position basically because I am the only one in engineering.  For the moment.  Yes, it does slow things down a tad, but that is not necessarily a bad thing, because to me Vault is useful in managing all of the Inventor data, keeps appropriate files linked, and allows me to use copy design when needed.

At my last job, management decided to eliminate Vault.  So, for the last 6 months I was there, my copy design turned into a lengthy process of copying said files in windows explorer.  Calling up the assemblies in Inventor and reattaching them when prompted.  So, when it is stated that Vault slows things down?  I can tell you first hand, Windows explorer is a lot slower process.

Even though I am a single user at the moment, I still find it better to use Vault.

To the point that @CGBenner  brought up in a multiuser environment, that was my first job.  while most of us were in our own specific projects, there was occasions where someone else had a part/assembly I needed checked out.  Vault is great at managing situations like this and eliminating duplicate copies of the same named parts/assemblies.

Makes searches (which is another great internal tool of Vault) that much cleaner and easier.

I hope this helps.

Windows 10 x64 -16GB Ram
Intel i7-6700 @ 3.41ghz
nVidia GTS 250 - 1 GB
Inventor Pro 2021

[MikeKovacik4928]

Thanks Chris and Scott

Yes I think it will definitely be beneficial once we are all familiar with it and have got everything set up properly.

Like you said it might slow things down a little, but not using it, I can see, and know from experience,

does make a lot of other things more difficult to control and longer to do, ie the copy design for one.

I am slowly getting used to it, and starting it to appreciate it more, and where there is going to be more than 1 or 2 people involved, definitely it is going to be better.

Mike

[swalton · Accepted solution]

I've found that PDM tools like Vault add value over time, as the design team increases/changes, and as the component count in a design gets larger.

If my designs have 10-500 parts, and are all independent, (like when I worked at a product development consulting company) the PDM tools didn't add much value.  However when the client returned year-after-year, then having all the design history helped.  Or if a project required several engineers/designers working concurrently, then PDM helps.

[Rory_M]

If you view the extra clicks and additional workflow as a negative, they're outweighed massively by the simple fact that you can find things so easily.

Vault is an odd sell in that its benefits aren't immediately apparent. You have to populate it with data before you can take advantage of searching for example.

At some point, you'll be looking for a part or drawing from 5 or 10 years ago and can only remember a few vague things about it - Maybe you only know its material or a specific iProp or a description you typed when you checked it in, with Vault you'll be able to go straight to it.

Other plus points:

Assigning part numbers automatically genuinely saves us so much time. We used to write them in a book (yes, we are old school)....

Being able to enforce iProperty rules (parts must have a description before they can be released for example) makes everyone have better working habits.

"Copy design" is worth its weight in gold.

For us, it's definitely worth it. Our old old (non-vault) data was and still is a mess. Our vault data is clean and tidy, indexed and searchable.

[IgorMir]

Hi Rory;

It boils down to simple discipline. I can find files created 25 years ago in a matter of minutes. If not even less. 

And vault is absolutely not needed for that. A simple spread sheet does the job wonderfully.

Cheers,

Igor.

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@Rory_M wrote:

If you view the extra clicks and additional workflow as a negative, they're outweighed massively by the simple fact that you can find things so easily.

Vault is an odd sell in that its benefits aren't immediately apparent. You have to populate it with data before you can take advantage of searching for example.

At some point, you'll be looking for a part or drawing from 5 or 10 years ago and can only remember a few vague things about it - Maybe you only know its material or a specific iProp or a description you typed when you checked it in, with Vault you'll be able to go straight to it.

Other plus points:

Assigning part numbers automatically genuinely saves us so much time. We used to write them in a book (yes, we are old school)....

Being able to enforce iProperty rules (parts must have a description before they can be released for example) makes everyone have better working habits.

"Copy design" is worth its weight in gold.

For us, it's definitely worth it. Our old old (non-vault) data was and still is a mess. Our vault data is clean and tidy, indexed and searchable.

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[Anonymous]

Having used both for over 10 years, Inventor without Vault for myself feels like only half the software. Even when I am the only user, I still rely on Vault. 

Copying, renaming, moving or recovering old versions, it makes it far easier.

It does add a layer of complexity and if there are multiple users who lack experience it can get messy. I think once you have several users that you need a good admin to keep it under control and help those users to do things correctly.

[MikeKovacik4928]

As a single user in the past, when I was freelancing or contracting on my own, I had no need to use vault,

my own method was more than adequate for me to find my old drawings from years back.

In a drawing office with multiple users Vault is definitely a plus.

Previously I was in a drawing office of about 8 draughters managed by a young inexperienced draughtsman,

where there were absolutely no controls, the different draughtsmen didn't even use the  central server as the main access point, there was no revision control etc etc, there was no vault.

I learnt from that, in my current situation, how important controls are and how very useful Vault is to implement those controls

Mike Kovacik

[IgorMir]

Hi Mike;

I am not against vault. If it works for anyone out there - it is fine.

But your own negative experience in the office with 8 drafters revolves around the young, inexperienced "manager", who was put in charge for the data management. How is that possible in a sane world? Yet it happens right, left and center. And instead of putting a competent person in charge for the drafting office - management is looking for an "electronic solution" to compensate for people's shortcomings. Training? Educating? Hiring experienced person?  God forbid! It is too expensive!

Cheers,

Igor.

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@MikeKovacik4928 wrote:

As a single user in the past, when I was freelancing or contracting on my own, I had no need to use vault,

my own method was more than adequate for me to find my old drawings from years back.

In a drawing office with multiple users Vault is definitely a plus.

Previously I was in a drawing office of about 8 draughters managed by a young inexperienced draughtsman,

where there were absolutely no controls, the different draughtsmen didn't even use the  central server as the main access point, there was no revision control etc etc, there was no vault.

I learnt from that, in my current situation, how important controls are and how very useful Vault is to implement those controls

Mike Kovacik

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[MikeKovacik4928]

In reply to autodesk's email, it was not a question requiring a solution,

it was a request for opinions and stories of users perceptions and experiences,

so I can't mark anything as an accepted solution.

I did get the sort of feedback I wanted however

Mike Kovacik

South Africa

[bradeneuropeArthur]

What workable solution do you suggest to use when using a lot of skeleton designs that are related and need to be modified during the release process. (Files have already been released and than a complete design change comes because of manufacturer requirements or customer requirements)

We are now in a constant loop of updating the designs to avoid

• Dirty-marks
• mixed revisions

This constant update is a process that can be solved today and the other day files or not clean anymore.

We were promised to save time with Vault but we actual spend time extra.

Are you for example all using a release process for model files?

Are model files not released?

More than frequently I hear that Vault pro is configured as it was Vault basic regarding the release process.

So this would mean no release of the files or at least not to release the model files (ipt and iam files)

Would this be a good scenario.

Your opinion is highly appreciated.

I think that how we have learned to work with inventor does not always work in a Vault environment.
Inventor users must be aware that often smart features of Inventor shall be used with care. 

It has not become easier 

@Bert_Bimmel has would love to highlight this issue I think too

We have designs that have over 500.000 files that are more or less related.

Without Vault it was always easy to update, but now it is more than time consuming. (we were ready within hours. Now we are not ready within weeks)

Any suggestions are welcome.

Regards,

[cadman777]

Good point about 'skeletal modeling'.

I use that method almost exclusively.

Another consideration is CONTROL:

Every document management system needs a 'File Gestapo', or else engineers do what they want and nobody knows about it. Their CAD and other engineering info gets lost when they leave the company or when IT wipes clean their hard drive. I've seen this done repeatedly over the years in every place I've worked or contracted.

The #1 waste of time is duplicating data. The #2 waste of time is searching for legacy data. If you want a document control system, you need very strict company policies for data and use of CAD and other engineering software. That takes a dedicated information office that's separate from IT. The best I've seen is a very powerful 'micro server' in the lead engineer's office, disconnected from the company-wide server, managing all and only engineering data. The engineers were trained, so everybody cooperated. That office had about 50 engineers, draftsmen etc. Worked like a charm. They didn't use Valut. They used something else, b/c they ran SolidWorks.

The only value that I can imagine getting from Vault is 'Copy Project'. But that SHOULD HAVE BEEN incorporated into the DA or included as an add-in for Inventor. Shame on Autodesk's corporate profit-driven policy for refusing to give their customers that functionality in the stand-alone software, thereby coercing us into using Vault (which I've never done).

[bradeneuropeArthur]

Thank you for that clear story.

It could have been written by myself.

1. Employees must be like robots. A mistake can not be made under all circumstances.
2. Inventor and the drawings are not the leading factor anymore. Vault workflow is.
3. You need at least one admin that is more then a robot because he should check for mistakes.
4. Every single step must be checked before others can proceed Designing.
5. Parallel working is not easy possible.
6. You will have a lot of waiting time since the CAD admin is quickly overloaded.
7. Promises to the customer are hard to make regarding delivery time.
8. Every new product needs to be tested because of not all features may be used.

And a lot more but this is for the moment sufficient, isn't it?

[swalton]

I don't bother with skeleton modeling, so I can only speculate.

I suspect that when a skeleton part is modified, Inventor is dirtying all the files that are driven by that file.  The actual geometry in any particular file might not be affected by the skeleton part change.  Inventor then wants to save the dirty files and Vault doesn't want to let it.

Do users look at all the file dependencies as they make changes to skeleton parts that drive released files?  Looking at the Where-Used tab in Vault for the skeleton part should be helpful. 

Does your Lifecycle (from Vault) include a Quick Change State?  It should be possible to push the "released-but-not-modified-by-this-change" models and drawings to that state.  Then change the "released-and-modified-by-this-change" models and drawing to the WIP state.  Finally, check out all the models and drawings that are driven by the skeleton part.   Make the changes, and check everything back in.  Change Vault States as required to lock the released files.

The main issue may be that Inventor can't check to see if each dependent file is actually changed by a skeleton part change.  

There may be better workflows.  

[bradeneuropeArthur]

And what would that workflow be, any ideas.

The QC have been removed because it was obused by the user!

Only admins can do that but they are overloaded.

Means waiting till he has time to only change something simple.

[cadman777]

I'm speculating here...

It would seem that Autodesk would have to further develop Vault to test for changes in weight, volume, added or subtracted geometry, feature sizes, material types, etc. They would essentially have a test routine that would serve as a basis for a number of other long-wanted functions, such as 'automatic dimensions', 'automatic drawings' (single part only), etc. I say that because if you  have an app that can test for the existence or absence of a 'thing' and compare it with a previously created list of 'things', then you can determine what exists and what has changed in a part or assembly.

[greg.youngCXLLN]

That's impressive, how many Inventor Users in your office?

[IgorMir]

I used to work in the offices with 5 - 6 people. But not anymore. Yet the set up I left behind with those people still works. As far as I know anyway.

Cheers,

Igor.

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@greg.youngCXLLN wrote:

That's impressive, how many Inventor Users in your office?

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[greg.youngCXLLN]

Would you happen to have an example of the file structure you use? I haven't used Inventor like that for quite a few years, but I need to now

cheers