Re: - Page 2

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

I've been extremely busy lately and havn't participated in this forum for a while. What I notice reading through here today is A LOT of very negative comments. I want to put my 2 cents in.

First of all it is to our advantage to have Autodesk employees participate in this group. Most of them do it because they WANT to, as volunteers. If we just bash their work constantly in a non-constructive way it will only encourage them to ignore this forum.

Secondly Rome wasn't built in a day. Inventor has had some problems, we all know that. Shapemanager is an example of Autodesk taking a major step to solve a problem. It will take time, you don't fix up somebody elses kernal with a decade of bugs in it within a few months. Autodesk has taken some major steps in other areas too to address key issues. It will take time for the changes to have an effect on things howerver. My point is things are being addressed but it takes time for the changes to occur.

Finally I'm sure somebody can read back through the posts and find times when I bashed Autodesk as well. We all get frustrated but lets all try and focus on being constructive.

Rich Thomas

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

My compliments Walt... accurately and well
stated.

Dave

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Walt Jaquith" <
href="mailto:waltj@hotmail.com">waltj@hotmail.com> wrote in message
href="news:7120AFB5141EC3AD250EAACF3FFF694C@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:7120AFB5141EC3AD250EAACF3FF......

There are four things I can immediately
think of that Autodesk does to directly contribute to the frustration
level.

1) Making wild claims about the product in
their sales propaganda that real users know is a load of reeking
fertilizer.  Inventor's much touted dwg compatibility (cough) is a
classic example of this. This begs the question: Does Autodesk *really*
know what it's like to actually try to use these "features"? After
putting up with the same problems release after release, the only conclusion
is that they really do believe their own pasture decor. This reinforces
the notion that they aren't really listening to their customers (and yet
'customer driven' is one of their favorite marketing phrases). No matter
how close this is to the truth, it's easy to believe because.....

2) They never tell us anything. To get any
real information out of an Autodesk employee, you have to put the screws on
'em until they give in and bend the rules a bit, throwing out a hint
while looking over their shoulder as if the software cops are going to jump
out of the bushes and drag them off for six months of correctional shock
treatments and a partial lobotomy. Ok, maybe they have to be that way,
but when you contrast the bare trickle of hard usable information from
engineering with the gushing flood of self-serving hype from marketing,
it's easy to see why folks are getting tense. And the tension just
increases every time.....

3) They issue a release with new features
that have every user I know saying:.......Whaaat?? Except in the case of
R7 is was more like:..........Wheeeere?? With the upcoming IV7Pro, we're
all just speechless. Stinging from being called armatures if we don't
buy the new add-on, dumbfounded that they'd have the audacity to crow about
how it's not really an add-on and therefore they're not really like the
competition at all, and at a loss for words wondering how many of the fixes
we've asked for for so long got shoved aside in favor of this....this
thing.  Ok, so I'm not speechless, but we still need the
fixes. Those fixes, by the way, are only outstanding
because.....

4) They release half-baked features, then
never seem to finish them. From the BOM to text handling to dimensioning
to the part library (and the list could go on and on...), Inventor is full of
stuff that was brought just to the level where it's tolerable, and the
workarounds are 'acceptable' (to someone who doesn't have to use them all
day), and just left there. Not just through one release. When
Autodesk introduces a feature that is obviously not really done yet, and then
does little to make it actually usable in the following
releases, people start wondering who's looking after the big
picture.

A lot of this frustration has some
justification.  It's roots are in a feeling of betrayal.
Autodesk had best take notice; the time when everyone would
tolerate Inventor's little hissy-fits because the software was young is
quickly passing.

Walt
Jaquith

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

Yes, well said.

Another tangent to this is customer loyalty. When you invest as much time
as folks tend to do into Inventor, and also see the effort of many dedicated
people (users) offering their time in the NG, you tend to want to stick to
your guns a little.

I for one am feeling the loyalty level fizzle away a great deal. I hope
they take these comments seriously.

G

"Walt Jaquith" wrote in message
news:7120AFB5141EC3AD250EAACF3FFF694C@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> There are four things I can immediately think of that Autodesk does to
directly contribute to the frustration level.
>
> 1) Making wild claims about the product in their sales propaganda that
real users know is a load of reeking fertilizer. Inventor's much touted dwg
compatibility (cough) is a classic example of this. This begs the question:
Does Autodesk *really* know what it's like to actually try to use these
"features"? After putting up with the same problems release after release,
the only conclusion is that they really do believe their own pasture decor.
This reinforces the notion that they aren't really listening to their
customers (and yet 'customer driven' is one of their favorite marketing
phrases). No matter how close this is to the truth, it's easy to believe
because.....
>
> 2) They never tell us anything. To get any real information out of an
Autodesk employee, you have to put the screws on 'em until they give in and
bend the rules a bit, throwing out a hint while looking over their shoulder
as if the software cops are going to jump out of the bushes and drag them
off for six months of correctional shock treatments and a partial lobotomy.
Ok, maybe they have to be that way, but when you contrast the bare trickle
of hard usable information from engineering with the gushing flood of
self-serving hype from marketing, it's easy to see why folks are getting
tense. And the tension just increases every time.....
>
> 3) They issue a release with new features that have every user I know
saying:.......Whaaat?? Except in the case of R7 is was more
like:..........Wheeeere?? With the upcoming IV7Pro, we're all just
speechless. Stinging from being called armatures if we don't buy the new
add-on, dumbfounded that they'd have the audacity to crow about how it's not
really an add-on and therefore they're not really like the competition at
all, and at a loss for words wondering how many of the fixes we've asked for
for so long got shoved aside in favor of this....this thing. Ok, so I'm not
speechless, but we still need the fixes. Those fixes, by the way, are only
outstanding because.....
>
> 4) They release half-baked features, then never seem to finish them. From
the BOM to text handling to dimensioning to the part library (and the list
could go on and on...), Inventor is full of stuff that was brought just to
the level where it's tolerable, and the workarounds are 'acceptable' (to
someone who doesn't have to use them all day), and just left there. Not
just through one release. When Autodesk introduces a feature that is
obviously not really done yet, and then does little to make it actually
usable in the following releases, people start wondering who's looking after
the big picture.
>
> A lot of this frustration has some justification. It's roots are in a
feeling of betrayal. Autodesk had best take notice; the time when everyone
would tolerate Inventor's little hissy-fits because the software was young
is quickly passing.
>
> Walt Jaquith

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

It looks like I picked the wrong time to be happy with Inventor; when I was
bashing R6 everybody else was happy with it

timing is everything.....

"Gary Cook" <1gcook2@3comautotech4.com (remove #s)> wrote in message
news:76D05D05E895C6190106D69FD2329297@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Yes, well said.
>
> Another tangent to this is customer loyalty. When you invest as much time
> as folks tend to do into Inventor, and also see the effort of many
dedicated
> people (users) offering their time in the NG, you tend to want to stick to
> your guns a little.
>
> I for one am feeling the loyalty level fizzle away a great deal. I hope
> they take these comments seriously.
>
> G
>

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

I for two.

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

I agree with you Jim, to add insult to injury, at the cost of missing a deadline I am at the same time trying to justify the cost of upgrading and purchasing more seats. I just need support from more people at my work, however not all have seats of Inventor. Seams that setting up the instalation and debugging eats more time then it could possible save. All in all I know the move to 3D is required to keep pace, and in the end I am sure Inventor will be a good selection but if I had to choose another package, the competition wouldn't be SW but Solid Edge, They had a great package three years ago and I am sure it has only improved since.

Inventor will catch up but is coming from behind is not the position AutoDesk is used to.

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

Here, here. Well said.

I'd also like to say that when it comes to helping
the customer learn to use the advanced functionality of IV, Autodesk has not
been there to help unless $$$ was involved. The VARs that I deal with
don't know squat about the software beyond how to do a few easy examples of
basic shapes and drawings. The manual that comes with the software gets a
new user started, but doesn't show how to use everything, and the help files are
confusing and frustrating. The best place for help is here, and the
questions are answered by non-Autodesk people 99% of the time. If you
think this isn't true, think about all the comments and requests that have been
made here about the helpful tutorials that some of our colleagues have made
and share with us expecting no payment for their trouble.

My thanks to all those who participate in this
NG. Those who ask questions, those who answer them, and those who state
their problems and opinions, all generate dialog here that I
find helpful. Now why doesn't Autodesk want to be a bigger part of
that?!?

Mike

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Walt Jaquith" <
href="mailto:waltj@hotmail.com">waltj@hotmail.com> wrote in message
href="news:7120AFB5141EC3AD250EAACF3FFF694C@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:7120AFB5141EC3AD250EAACF3FF......

There are four things I can immediately
think of that Autodesk does to directly contribute to the frustration
level.

1) Making wild claims about the product in
their sales propaganda that real users know is a load of reeking
fertilizer.  Inventor's much touted dwg compatibility (cough) is a
classic example of this. This begs the question: Does Autodesk *really*
know what it's like to actually try to use these "features"? After
putting up with the same problems release after release, the only conclusion
is that they really do believe their own pasture decor. This reinforces
the notion that they aren't really listening to their customers (and yet
'customer driven' is one of their favorite marketing phrases). No matter
how close this is to the truth, it's easy to believe because.....

2) They never tell us anything. To get any
real information out of an Autodesk employee, you have to put the screws on
'em until they give in and bend the rules a bit, throwing out a hint
while looking over their shoulder as if the software cops are going to jump
out of the bushes and drag them off for six months of correctional shock
treatments and a partial lobotomy. Ok, maybe they have to be that way,
but when you contrast the bare trickle of hard usable information from
engineering with the gushing flood of self-serving hype from marketing,
it's easy to see why folks are getting tense. And the tension just
increases every time.....

3) They issue a release with new features
that have every user I know saying:.......Whaaat?? Except in the case of
R7 is was more like:..........Wheeeere?? With the upcoming IV7Pro, we're
all just speechless. Stinging from being called armatures if we don't
buy the new add-on, dumbfounded that they'd have the audacity to crow about
how it's not really an add-on and therefore they're not really like the
competition at all, and at a loss for words wondering how many of the fixes
we've asked for for so long got shoved aside in favor of this....this
thing.  Ok, so I'm not speechless, but we still need the
fixes. Those fixes, by the way, are only outstanding
because.....

4) They release half-baked features, then
never seem to finish them. From the BOM to text handling to dimensioning
to the part library (and the list could go on and on...), Inventor is full of
stuff that was brought just to the level where it's tolerable, and the
workarounds are 'acceptable' (to someone who doesn't have to use them all
day), and just left there. Not just through one release. When
Autodesk introduces a feature that is obviously not really done yet, and then
does little to make it actually usable in the following
releases, people start wondering who's looking after the big
picture.

A lot of this frustration has some
justification.  It's roots are in a feeling of betrayal.
Autodesk had best take notice; the time when everyone would
tolerate Inventor's little hissy-fits because the software was young is
quickly passing.

Walt
Jaquith

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

I agree. why don't we see more autodesk help on this discussion group. wouldn't hurt them to chime in every now in and again. but they don't which just shows they don't care. its all about the money any more...
i tried to get a answer about the welding feature and all they could do was try to defend them selves without giving me a true answer. then try to say it was the customers fault not thiers.

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

oh i won't even get into the whole viewer (edited).

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

"helpful tutorials that some of our colleagues have made and share with us
expecting no payment for their trouble"

Oh *I* expect payment, trouble is it's difficult to send beer through
email...

--
Sean Dotson, PE
http://www.sdotson.com
Check the Inventor FAQ for most common questions
www.sdotson.com/faq.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"mpower" wrote in message
news:2FA32D5142DE8BD5C1273834C65DB317@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Here, here. Well said.
>
> I'd also like to say that when it comes to helping the customer learn to
use the advanced functionality of IV, Autodesk has not been there to help
unless $$$ was involved. The VARs that I deal with don't know squat about
the software beyond how to do a few easy examples of basic shapes and
drawings. The manual that comes with the software gets a new user started,
but doesn't show how to use everything, and the help files are confusing and
frustrating. The best place for help is here, and the questions are
answered by non-Autodesk people 99% of the time. If you think this isn't
true, think about all the comments and requests that have been made here
about the helpful tutorials that some of our colleagues have made and share
with us expecting no payment for their trouble.
>
> My thanks to all those who participate in this NG. Those who ask
questions, those who answer them, and those who state their problems and
opinions, all generate dialog here that I find helpful. Now why doesn't
Autodesk want to be a bigger part of that?!?
>
> Mike
> "Walt Jaquith" wrote in message
news:7120AFB5141EC3AD250EAACF3FFF694C@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> There are four things I can immediately think of that Autodesk does to
directly contribute to the frustration level.
>
> 1) Making wild claims about the product in their sales propaganda that
real users know is a load of reeking fertilizer. Inventor's much touted dwg
compatibility (cough) is a classic example of this. This begs the question:
Does Autodesk *really* know what it's like to actually try to use these
"features"? After putting up with the same problems release after release,
the only conclusion is that they really do believe their own pasture decor.
This reinforces the notion that they aren't really listening to their
customers (and yet 'customer driven' is one of their favorite marketing
phrases). No matter how close this is to the truth, it's easy to believe
because.....
>
> 2) They never tell us anything. To get any real information out of an
Autodesk employee, you have to put the screws on 'em until they give in and
bend the rules a bit, throwing out a hint while looking over their shoulder
as if the software cops are going to jump out of the bushes and drag them
off for six months of correctional shock treatments and a partial lobotomy.
Ok, maybe they have to be that way, but when you contrast the bare trickle
of hard usable information from engineering with the gushing flood of
self-serving hype from marketing, it's easy to see why folks are getting
tense. And the tension just increases every time.....
>
> 3) They issue a release with new features that have every user I know
saying:.......Whaaat?? Except in the case of R7 is was more
like:..........Wheeeere?? With the upcoming IV7Pro, we're all just
speechless. Stinging from being called armatures if we don't buy the new
add-on, dumbfounded that they'd have the audacity to crow about how it's not
really an add-on and therefore they're not really like the competition at
all, and at a loss for words wondering how many of the fixes we've asked for
for so long got shoved aside in favor of this....this thing. Ok, so I'm not
speechless, but we still need the fixes. Those fixes, by the way, are only
outstanding because.....
>
> 4) They release half-baked features, then never seem to finish them.
From the BOM to text handling to dimensioning to the part library (and the
list could go on and on...), Inventor is full of stuff that was brought just
to the level where it's tolerable, and the workarounds are 'acceptable' (to
someone who doesn't have to use them all day), and just left there. Not
just through one release. When Autodesk introduces a feature that is
obviously not really done yet, and then does little to make it actually
usable in the following releases, people start wondering who's looking after
the big picture.
>
> A lot of this frustration has some justification. It's roots are in a
feeling of betrayal. Autodesk had best take notice; the time when everyone
would tolerate Inventor's little hissy-fits because the software was young
is quickly passing.
>
> Walt Jaquith

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

I sent you one through the NG one time. B-)

MechMan

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

It is a fine line. If Autodesk spends a lot
of time up here, then their reseller channel will not be happy. Why buy a
support contract if Autodesk will answer the questions for you?

Ed O'Halloran

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"RUBE" <
href="mailto:1john@liftaloft.com">1john@liftaloft.com> wrote in message

href="news:f167ac3.29@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f167ac3.29@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
I
agree. why don't we see more autodesk help on this discussion group. wouldn't
hurt them to chime in every now in and again. but they don't which just shows
they don't care. its all about the money any more... tried to get a answer
about the welding feature and all they could do was try to defend them selves
without giving me a true answer. then try to say it was the customers fault
not thiers.

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

Why buy a support contract if the reseller doesn't
know anything anyway?

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Ed O'Halloran" <
href="mailto:eohalloran@automationtd.com">eohalloran@automationtd.com>
wrote in message
href="news:03B62EAD62845ECD4CABDB85CD696884@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:03B62EAD62845ECD4CABDB85CD6......

It is a fine line. If Autodesk spends a lot
of time up here, then their reseller channel will not be happy. Why buy
a support contract if Autodesk will answer the questions for
you?

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

Not to sound like I'm taking sides, but there are a lot of things going on with the IV developers and QA guys right now. I think one reason you haven't seen Gary Smith or Jason Ruge (sp?) posting in here lately is because they are pounding on SP1 right now (which will be released soon 😉 for some of the very issues that are posted in this group. IV Pro will be targeted at industry specific companies and priced accordingly. There will be versions for mold, wiring, and piping. Don't quote me on this, but I think that if you are an AIS customer you will have all versions. Other companies that just buy IV will be able to upgrade to the industry specific version. As for the R7 release, this version required a full release number because of support for the new AutoCAD format. Thats primarily the only reason for it. I spent some time talking to product managers and QA guys last week. They are all very busy working on the R8 release due out this fall. In talking with them, I found that many of them do read the posts in this newsgroup and are very appreciative of the responses and suggestions that come from all of us in this group. They are dedicated to building better software just as we are dedicated to building better machines. It's not a marriage made in heaven but rather a dance, not everybody likes all of the music but most can dance with it. Mike@RTSWright

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

why buy Inventor if it don't work?

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

On Wed, 28 May 2003 06:23:36 -0700, Ed O'Halloran
wrote:

> It is a fine line. If Autodesk spends a lot of time up here, then their
> reseller channel will not be happy. Why buy a support contract if
> Autodesk will answer the questions for you?

Currently, I believe they're far from crossing that fine line.

But why buy a support contract if this group, even without autodesk
personell, will answer your question?
I've never bought a support contract........

Jorgen Bjornes

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

Very well written, great
job.

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

If you want to be that general ... nothing works!
~Larry

"jiml" wrote in message news:f167ac3.36@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> why buy Inventor if it don't work?

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

Of course you feel that way, but if you made your money by selling support
contracts, and it was possible for your customers to have direct access to
Autodesk QA and the development team, you would feel differently.

What Mpower said is absolutely 100% correct. The people building Inventor
do care about what they do. They get very upset when something does not
work as planned, or possibly it does work as planned, but it was planned
incorrectly.

Ed

"Jorgen Bjornes" wrote in message
news:oprpvxnmo1mpwhjz@localhost...
> On Wed, 28 May 2003 06:23:36 -0700, Ed O'Halloran
> wrote:
>
> > It is a fine line. If Autodesk spends a lot of time up here, then their
> > reseller channel will not be happy. Why buy a support contract if
> > Autodesk will answer the questions for you?
>
>
>
> Currently, I believe they're far from crossing that fine line.
>
> But why buy a support contract if this group, even without autodesk
> personell, will answer your question?
> I've never bought a support contract........
>
>
> Jorgen Bjornes

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

"but I think that if you are an AIS customer you will have all versions"

I didn't get this out of the pricing scheme at all. It appears to me (and
others, I think) that AIS will still get you Inventor Basic (LT?) and MDT. There
is an extra $1000 or so if you want the new features. I don't see why they would
just give us the new "features" if 1) it's not a new release, or 2) It costs
more then AIS. This is what we are all upset about. ADESK released a version 7
with few new features, then turn around and release a version 7 Pro with a bunch
of new features, it appears they are trying to get around shipping the new
features to the current subscription holders by releasing a "service pack" type
release and slapping a new number on it, then releasing a PRO version of the
same number. That way, they don't have to ship the features to the current
holders because it's not a "numbered release". BLECH!

--
Dave Jacquemotte
Automation Designer

Anonymous · ‎05-27-2003

R7 Pro won't have "a bunch of new features", just the new add-ins that have been acquired. Like I said don't quote me on the pricing to move to R7P. Mike

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