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Forget BIM (for now) - give us robust STEEL DETAILING functionality

Forget BIM (for now) - give us robust STEEL DETAILING functionality

I have been steel detailing over 30 years, 3D modelling over 20 years and using AS for nearly 18 years.

 

I find it completely unsatisfactory that basic requirements for steel detailing software are still lacking due to being either missing completely or implemented badly.

The creation of accurate, easy to read 2D fabrication and erection drawings as *efficiently* as possible is the primary purpose of the software.

Without this, nothing gets built.

 

I started using Tekla (or Xsteel as it was back then) in 1996 and even then, it could do many fundamental things that AS still has problems with.  Tekla was clearly built from the ground up by people with very good STEEL DETAILING experience.

NOTE: Engineers are NOT necessarily good or knowledgeable steel detailers - they don't have to be - that's why we have steel detailers.

...and also being a qualified structural engineer myself, I feel able to say that without being critical.

 

Why do the Advance Steel managers not listen to the people who know what they are talking about (and who effectively pay their wages)!

 

There are so many good ideas on here but so little being implemented.

 

AS2018 is frankly a joke (sorry, but it is).  Just one mildly useful new function (call off views) but even that has been implemented badly.  ...and on top of that, countless new problems costing users hours and hours of time.  The dimension problems with drawing updates are as bad as they have ever been but are just one area of many issues.

On top of that we have a ridiculous waste of development time implementing things like the new drawing creation dialogs in AS2017, which even now are still lacking in functionality that we already had for years.

...and we are paying good money for this!

...if you get your pay check every month whatever then good for you, but many of us are self employed detailers and only get paid for what we produce.

Time is money - literally - and anything that affects our productivity gives us good cause to shout.

 

...and as for Revit connections - as a steel detailer, who actually needs that?

...and BIM in general? - yes a fantastic thing in theory, but in most cases a very poor take on the real world.

In my experience the whole BIM concept of the single model is flawed as no one wants to take responsibility for anything.

At the early design stages members may be modelled (in Revit or similar) on a near enough is good enough basis and stay that way.  Fine for structural design where even half a metre might not make much difference, but we detailers are working to a millimetre.

 

In over 30 years of detailing I have NEVER had a *usable* model supplied by any engineer or architect.

Even as recently as my current project, the engineer used Revit but we were told we should not use his model or do so at our own risk - all setting out had to be to the architects given dimensions on his 2D drawings - we could not even rely on any 2D cad drawings.

Sadly this is the "normal" way of things and I can't see that changing any time soon no matter how much development goes into the whole "BIM" concept.

The buck stops with the steel detailer - the final link in the chain before it all gets fabricated and erected.  We MUST get it right.

 

For now, forget BIM and adding more "Bells and Whistles" (that often don't even work properly).

 

What we need and want as steel detailers is solid, reliable functionality tailored to steel detailing so we can just get on with our job in the most efficient way.

Once we have that, you will then have a solid foundation on which to build other things - just get the fundamentals for steel detailing right first!

 

Rant over 🙂

 

39 Comments
Austruct
Advocate

Thank you for you post. I agree with everything about the detailing aspect of the software, it is languishing behind other products and very inefficient.   

 

With regards to Revit integration this should be considered down the track after they have rectified the product for detailing. Note with Revit 2018 it can now bring in Navisworks models directly into the Revit model environment. (a very easy way to coordinate with other disciplines using Revit).

 

As for BIM in general, this I believe is still essential (exportation of the AS model to different intelligent file formats, example: .IFC ). This is a requirement on most projects of any scale these days and shouldn’t be neglected.    

 

The question still remains if Advance Steel is going to be developed for steel detailing in the future.

AntDrt
Advisor

absolutly according to my Thought !

 

REVIT and other managment software are not our job ! no-one gave me a revit model usable in AS, no-one want responsabilties about steel detailling, WAKE UP DEVS ! you live in a candy world... Architect and designers doesn't want to make detail so it's our job.

 

but for detailling AS is poor, very poor (comparing TEKLA, and i know AS haven't the price of TEKLA, but seriously...)

Modelling is great (except the war machine needed for large model but it's another question) we have many improvments in 27/28 release for it.

But, it's creates bugs.... 17.1 beams diseappearing; 18 special parts diseappearing in optimized visual styles.

 

Your try to make the Drawing workflow better isn't good... you take off options for users and force them to create mehod to avoid your implementations. (i know i did it...)

The callout view is a GREAT GREAT IMPROVEMENT for sure and i thank you for it.

 

But the new workflow of manual cut is a nightmare, see my post on the forum to understand the problem:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/advance-steel-forum/central-object-in-cut-view/m-p/7064108#M10705

 

AS need no more any 3D improvement for now, you have to concentrate your DEVTIME on the drawing improvements, you will gain more user with that.

 

and please, communicate a little more to show you care about us, and explain better the strategy of autodesk for Detailling ( keep AS or merge with revit in the future etc...)

 

Thanks

acbsdesign
Mentor

@Drawtech,

 

Did you copy this from my list or it was just your post? Smiley Happy

 

Wake Up Dev's!

 

The only way is to stop paying to get them hear, no other way.

 

Until then they will get their paychecks each month or each week, and who cares...

 

Bad...

acbsdesign
Mentor

Interesting-top dev's are excited about Revit more than being concerned about Advance Steel...

 

http://blogs.autodesk.com/bim-and-beam/2017/06/28/updated-structural-steel-families-for-revit/

acbsdesign
Mentor

ok if they will merge Revit with Advance-may be a winner.

 

How will be the new software called-Advanced Revit?

 

Or Revit Steel?

 

Or Space-X-Steel?

 

Futuristic.

Drawtech
Collaborator

@acbsdesign

"Did you copy this from my list or it was just your post?"

No, although I know you share the sentiments. 🙂  I'm just completely fed up with paying a load of money each year for rubbish - productivity seems to get worse instead of better!

 

@acbsdesign

"ok if they will merge Revit with Advance-may be a winner."

I sincerely hope not. From what I have seen of Revit in the past (it was a number of years ago mind you) it would make an awful platform for steel detailing.

 

If they are trying to take on Tekla, they need to realise that Tekla (in the days of X-steel) had already got all the steel detailing fundamentals right before Advance Steel (or HyperSteel as it was then) even existed and now (and for many years) Tekla are building on that solid foundation.

 

I sometimes wonder why I don't just switch back to Tekla.  I suppose it is partly due to my involvement in AS development for the UK between 2000-2008 (via a dev partner) and partly because I genuinely believe AS could be the best detailing software available - if only they would listen to what the majority of users actually want and NEED.

 

They should have a steel detailer in charge of the dev program (with 10+ years STEEL DETAILING experience), not engineers, developers, graduates or anyone else.

 

 

acbsdesign
Mentor

This is what I am saying too....

 

Tekla is not on my table, There is no force in the nature to make me switch to Tekla.

 

Looking through the Autodesk's eyes-we are very tiny part of the overall picture.

 

I like Advance, I spent hundreds of hours reporting, suggesting, arguing etc. 

 

It is a good overall software. 

 

But the management of the developers is terrible. And I am trying to be polite. +

 

Lack of ANY steel detailing experience.

acbsdesign
Mentor

It is good for me to see an experienced user like you thinking the same way I think.

 

And many others too.

 

We have to find a way to be heard. 

ZHUKOV_ING
Advocate

I totaly agree with all comments... AS i nice sowtware but there are 2 areas where software is behind (lets say industry leading) TEKLA...

 

1. 3D platform... Tekla is faster  .. Just imagine Navis engine implemented in Advance Steel this will boost the speed of the software working with big models..

 

2. Same old same old 2d drawings and dimensions... Tekla and Revit have "clever" dimensions without the need of "detail update" button in 2d enviroment so there is no moving dimensions and labels...

 

muleman1
Advisor

AMEN!

Anonymous
Not applicable

I totally agree with all this. Well said Drawtech.

Bill_Wellham
Explorer

I have been using AS for only just over three years (on and off).  The last year has been only using AS.  I have not installed AS 2017 or 2018 due to all of the comments regarding bugs and errors with the latest updates.  (I also am a Adobe Photoshop user, and I ALWAYS look forward to every latest version of that software),  I wish Advance Steel always gave us something to look forward to.

 

I just feel that the creation of GA's and fabrication details is based on the following:

 

Model Model Model - (all good) !

 

Create details, Update, edit details, Update, edit details, Update, edit, UPDATE, EDIT, UPDATE, EDIT, UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE...

 

hours and hours of re-positioning labels, details, dimensions, UPDATES, UPDATES, UPDATES.

 

I sometimes wonder why my headaches are getting worse every evening.

 

The document manager and all the details I have spent days working on is a bit like a house of cards...  one mistake and everything just collapses.

 

I do want to like Advance Steel,  I really do.  In my company we have three AS users, and five old-skool 2D detailers.  I just can't recommend the other guys converting over yet.  I think the 2D guys all produce quicker than us 3D guys...   and with a smile on their face at the end of the day.

 

Also, I agree about the current pointlessness of Revit and BIM.  I am sure it has a place in the building industry (architects especially), but we do not use it, and I can't see that changing for MANY years.

 

I shall remain optimistic, and hope that there will be a ground breaking inspirational Advance Steel release (maybe AS2020).  

abeeler
Advocate

Whole-heartedly 100% agree!  Especially given the new licensing structure, who would want to stick with a mediocre detailing software that causes you to lose access to your past work if you stop paying the subscription?

muleman1
Advisor

well said @Bill_Wellham

 

pawelpiechnik
Autodesk

Dave et al,

 

I hope this message puts some more light on this topic and the role of Advance Steel in the Autodesk strategy:

 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/advance-steel-forum/is-advance-steel-going-to-be-merged-with-revit/m-...

 

We at Autodesk would like to share some words about our future vision for Revit and Advance Steel as it relates to structural steel. We think this is an important discussion to have. While meeting with customers over the past few years, many of the same questions have been talked about at length. We would like to share a few key points about the questions raised, what we are doing and why.

First, it is true that we have been expanding Revit to be more than a design coordination and documentation software. Based on many industry drivers and the request from customers, we started extending Revit to be a common BIM environment for architects and all major engineering disciplines and their related trades.   For structural this meant expanding Revit to better connect structural analysis and design and structural detailing downstream, into Revit. 

 

Today, we have building professionals using Revit for both design and detailing of mechanical services, concrete rebar, precast, timber and cold-formed steel. We also want to extend this vision for structural steel by automating the detailing process through a tighter integration between Revit and Advance Steel.

 

It is a valid point to hear “why put this all in Revit when different professionals do these tasks.” That is a valid point that we’ve been asked, especially by engineers in North America where engineers don’t detail steel or concrete. When looking more broadly geographically and into the future, we expect our customers doing both design and detailing to be working more collaboratively. That will require a new level of collaboration that is only possible working on a common platform.

 

The last point that I want to make about our steel strategy for Revit is that we are not intending engineers or architects to detail unless they have the skillset to do so. We see customers’ different business models emerging that include both design and detailing services. Delivering those services will still require different people to perform their specific tasks, but in a much more integrated way.

 

A second point that I would like to make is that Advance Steel provides a key part of our future BIM strategy. We see a continued demand for AutoCAD based steel detailing and we have many examples of existing AutoCAD verticals with similar, parallel capabilities on other Autodesk platforms. Therefore, we see Advance Steel as a viable steel detailing solution to service the AutoCAD based workflows that continue to be used across the globe.

 

 

 

Drawtech
Collaborator

Thanks for the feedback Pawel and good to hear there is no plan to merge Advance Steel with Revit 🙂
...but with respect, it's all about priorities and some of your points are exactly why I made my post - Autodesk's view still seems heavily leaning towards BIM and collaboration rather than steel detailing.

At risk of repeating myself, as a paying user, this is how I see things:

Users are fed up paying substantial sums of money year on year to have it spent developing things they don't want or need at the expense of what they do need.
...and frankly, things that should already be there in an established steel detailing application but have somehow been ignored (if not by Autodesk, then by previous owners).

...BIM and collaboration are ideologies not yet realised *for the majority of projects*.  Sure, some high profile projects get the full BIM treatment, but most steel detailers are working on more "average" projects where this just isn't going to happen any time soon - if ever!

If Advance Steel were already a fundamentally sound steel detailing application, then fair enough to spend time on BIM and collaboration.  However, there is still so much basic steel detailing functionality that needs to be implemented or existing functionality to be fixed/enhanced to work efficiently that time spent on anything else is not in the interests of the majority of users or indeed to Autodesk if they are looking to increase their share of the steel detailing market.

Since this is one of the most top voted topics, I think it's fair to say that most users don't want valuable development time (and their hard earned money) spent on BIM/collaboraton functionality (not yet) - we want robust steel detailing functionality so we can carry out our work/business in an efficient manner.

We are steel detailers. We purchased steel detailing software.  We pay maintenance for steel detailing software.  Is it too much to ask that development time is spent on steel detailing functionality?
BIM/collaboraton is pointless if the basics for steel detailing are not already there!

...it's great to see that some of the long standing problems are finally being addressed (like dimension stability etc), so that's something to be positive about, but there is still a long way to go.
For the users at the sharp end, the obvious priority would be to put BIM/collaboration on the back burner and put all development efforts into the essential steel detailing functionality we need every day (the essence of my original post)!

🙂

Anonymous
Not applicable

Thanks again Drawtech!! I couldn't agree more. Especially since I just wasted 3 hours threading rod ends and putting nuts into a model as special parts and then manually fudge the part drawings and material list to make it look right. This is just one example of many things that a detailing package should be able to do. Please fix this and all the other deficiencies in Advance Steel.

acbsdesign
Mentor

@Drawtech,

 

Thank you for this post and for all of the hard work bringing the issues we have.

 

It looks like Autodesk will need to hire more dev's with detailing experience to fully understand the bottlenecks of the software.

 

At least to hire on a temp basis-as consultants or something similar.

 

We have been heavily mistreated over the past few years, I witnessed web meetings where the issues were ignored.

 

We witnessed how important issues were put in archives with "not enough votes" explanation-how about this idea now-how many votes do they need to stop thinking about BIM collaboration and to put our money into the software we pay for.

 

No pink toolbars please.

 

No greyed icons / palettes etc.

 

Have the most reasonable ideas in this Idea Station implemented instead.

 

 

 

 

 

acbsdesign
Mentor

I just watched AU video with one of the PM of Advance, regarding the connections done in Revit.

 

http://au.autodesk.com/au-online/classes-on-demand/class-catalog/classes/year-2017/revit/msf122200#c...

 

I must say-out of touch.

 

SDS/2 is being ruled by detailers, done by detailers for detailers.

 

Tekla has the leaders to put together a good, reliable, fast and competitive package.

 

Bocad is done by super professionals for bridge detailers.

 

We have to deal with all the mallarkies told in the video above.

 

 

 

 

daveBT5BH
Enthusiast

AS is so buggy and isn't able to do the basic walk thru. Very disappointed. I've spent three days trying to get this program to work correctly. Nope...Done. Moving on. Amazed at how out of touch Autodesk is regarding customer feedback. I use Fusion and love it, but very disappointed in the lack of response to many requests for something simple like weld symbols.....I can only imagine how Advance Steel rolls....Nope.

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