LOD 300 vs LOD 500

[Anonymous]

Hello I’m Doug Overfelt, BIM Manager at SFCS Architects.

We have a client that wants us to do a Revit Model to the Highest level. Every piece of Crown Mo0lding, Manufacture product names for furniture, HVAC systems, doors etc. We typically do on a LOD of 300, some 350. From what I understand they want a LOD 500 after the project is done (as builts) basically in model format. Which I’m excited to do, but I have been tasked with developing hours it would take to do this task. I  wonder if you guys might know where I can look for data or if you might have some data (rough numbers) that it would take to create a LOD 300 model vs a LOD 500 model. Or do you know of somewhere or someone that might have this type of information. I know this is the typ Architects thing I need the info by tomorrow for the client interview ( I love my job).

Any help would be great,

Thanks in advance

Doug Overfelt

BIM/CAD Manager

SFCS Inc. 305 South Jefferson Street Roanoke, VA 24011-2003 Office:  540.344.6664

Direct:  540.682.8058

Email:  doverfelt@sfcs.com

Website:  www.sfcs.com

SFCS is a full-service architectural, engineering, planning, and

interior design firm that specializes in the design of senior living,

education, health care, and government facilities nationwide.

[chrisplyler]

Man oh man. That's going to be a huge effort. Are you going to - for example - get manufacturer's cut sheets on each piece of door hardware and make real-life accurate familes of each one? And are you then going to make them shared and nest them into door families for which you've also modeled to real-life accuracy? Are you supposed to have all the building framework done with each stud in the real-life place? Are you supposed to have the nails and screws? How accurate are you supposed to be on - for example - a fan coil unit with a furnace? Are you supposed to model the body exterior to real-life conditions? The interior guts of the thing? How much of the manufacturer's data are you expected to actually create parameters for and enter?

You had better pin down the scope. This is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge time sink.

Speaking of sink...just try this for one thing as a test. See if you can get a kitchen sink, its faucet and its plumbing connections up to 5' away to be LOD 500. I bet that's going to take you an entire 8-hour day, if you're already very good at Revit AND you already have all manufacturers' cut sheets and data.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply, Here is a little on the scope of things as I know them. No studs, screws, nails, etc. I'm thinking not all of it has to be put in parameters either, but just linked to cut sheets for a lot of the manufactured parts of the building equipment. Doors and hardware we typically do now anyway so it feels out schedule, but I would Link in cut sheets again for other info on the doors and windows. But defiantly have to model all of the interiors, carpet, pictures on walls, lights, casework, so that everything can be ID. It's more of a FM job kind of thing the owner wants. I'm going to suggest the onwer buy / use Navisworks to navigate around the model and select and identify things. There is where I hoping to do some of the linking of info too in the project.

This would also be done after the working dwgs are done, so we would have some of the info in place already.

And, yes I know it is a huge time factor, but if they are willing to pay for it, we can do it.
Thanks again for the reply

Doug Overfelt
BIM/CAD Manager

SFCS Inc.
305 South Jefferson Street
Roanoke, VA 24011-2003
Office: 540.344.6664
Direct: 540.682.8058
Email: doverfelt@sfcs.com
Website: www.sfcs.com

SFCS is a full-service architectural, engineering, planning, and
interior design firm that specializes in the design of senior living,
education, health care, and government facilities nationwide.

CONNECT
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[Anonymous]

Create some worksheets for the client to fill out that let you know what they expect in the model. Find out if the client has typical products they always want to use. Some manufacturers have revit content. But beware...you still may need to add pararmeters and fix other funkinesses.

Examine your typical family components. You will most likely need to add parameters so that information desired by the client can be extracted.

Things like walls will need data added to the layers of each structure and finish type...

Refer to the AIA document on LOD to clearly define what you are expected to provide. AIA G202 and AIA E203

This then becomes an agreement between you and the client for your services.

A blanket statement of "give me LOD 500" is dangerous...spell it out in writing!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply. I really like the idea of creating worksheets for the client to fill out to let us know exactly what they are wanting. I feel it's more of an FM type of model and not truly a LOD 500 the client wants. There is no way we will model bolted connections or metal studs in walls. Yes I know I will have to create some more parameters to meet their needs (which is still a moving target right now).
Thanks again for the idea of worksheets, that should be a good start.

Doug Overfelt
BIM/CAD Manager

SFCS Inc.
305 South Jefferson Street
Roanoke, VA 24011-2003
Office: 540.344.6664
Direct: 540.682.8058
Email: doverfelt@sfcs.com
Website: www.sfcs.com

SFCS is a full-service architectural, engineering, planning, and
interior design firm that specializes in the design of senior living,
education, health care, and government facilities nationwide.

CONNECT
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[chrisplyler]

Still, you can't just use an out-of-the-box Revit door family, can you? If they're going to want to be able to click on a closer, or a hinge for that matter, and pull up data about it, you're going to have to model/parameterize those families. You're going to have to make families for everything (at least everything that isn't a system family) they're going to want to click on and pull data from.

Or maybe not. Maybe you can just add parameters to an OOTB door for a link to the closer cut sheet, a link to the hinge cut sheet, etc. without actually modeling those things. So there wouldn't be an actual hinge for them to click on...they click on the basic door and see all related links. It might not be so bad if that solution is acceptable. But if they want the model to actually contain all those little things like accurate door hardware, cabinetry hardware, faucets, the shower curtain for cryin' out loud... then that's going to be murder.

So will they just let you link several cut sheets to OOTB families? Or do they want the 3D model to have an unusually deep level of accuracy?

[constantin.stroescu]

I agree with Leslie and Chris

I am a designer and I think that LOD 500 is mostly task of the Owner's team and a significant part of LOD 400 is Contractor's team task.....

Some useful:

• Links to AIA Construct Documents :  https://bimforum.org/lod/

2015 LOD Specification - Draft for Public Comment makes a detailed coparison of LOD 100,200,300,350 and 400 . As LOD 500 ( even it is included in AIA's LOD definitions) is mainly dedicated to field verification,maintenance and  facility management it is not detailed here 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply. I agree to with what you guys are saying - it a big task and no one going to want to pay for that type of work per LOD 500 callout. But what do you do when an client ask for, you try and give him hours and if he willing to pay for it???
Thanks again for the reply.

Doug Overfelt
BIM/CAD Manager

SFCS Inc.
305 South Jefferson Street
Roanoke, VA 24011-2003
Office: 540.344.6664
Direct: 540.682.8058
Email: doverfelt@sfcs.com
Website: www.sfcs.com

SFCS is a full-service architectural, engineering, planning, and
interior design firm that specializes in the design of senior living,
education, health care, and government facilities nationwide.

CONNECT
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[constantin.stroescu]

I imagine that this could be possible if you make a contract with the owner on a certain period of time ( I don't know , maybe at least 10 

years ). The owner will have the duty to inform you about any changes of the building function, aquisition of any new equipment or furniture , and you will have to gather all this  informations  in order to keep the virtual buildig up to date. Every change or improvement has to be taken in consideration and added to the Virtual Building ( somehow like in a mirror) . 

[Keith_Wilkinson]

Wow... just reading this.  Sounds liket the client doesn't really know what he is asking for or what is involved.

As others have said this is a truly MASSIVE task and what you would really need to make it even remotely viable is to get the content for your families from the suppliers - you aren't qualified to complete the data anyway (I mean no disrespect by the BTW) so it needs to come from them.

If the client is insistent then I'd think of a really big number, double it and put a $ sign in front of it.

[chrisplyler]

I would propose a cost-plus agreement for a scope review meeting with the client, a week of Reviting, and finally a review meeting with the client. Then the average rate of progression could be evaluated along with the client's satisfaction with the content produced, and a decision could be made on how to move forward with a better understanding of what is expected and involved.

[rosskirby]

• Step 1: Spend no less than half a day going through a typical BIM Execution Plan (I recommend the Penn State BxP as a starting point, as it has tons of data already) with the owner and detail all the items involved in delivering a model at LOD 500.  Be sure that everyone understands both why they need such a high level of detail, and also what that level of detail actually includes.
• Step 2: Pare down the list to the bare minimum of items that they need, and the LOD it needs to be.
• Step 3: For pricing, it will depend a lot on your scope, the scope of your consultants, the GC involved (and how early/late they get involved), and the size/scope of the project.
• Step 4: Give the owner an hourly fee above and beyond developing the model as you normally would for generating construction documents.  I can guarantee that there will be additional items they think they want documented now, that it will turn out they don't actually need, and vice versa.

[JADAstudio]

Has anyone, anywhere, actually completed an LOD500 model with Revit? Ever?

[Keith_Wilkinson]

Doubt it.  ;o)

[Anonymous]

So that everyone knows, I have redefine the scope of work with the Owner and it was as I org thought he was just speaking or repeating something that he had heard from someone else. After a couple meetings now with him and using work sheets to help define the scope, we have decided he just wants an elec copy of the model with as much of the info imbedded as possible. Mainly dealing with the equipment side of things for his management team to use in the future for ordering replacement parts etc. Door types and hardware, windows, ceiling tile, a lot of the physical stuff that you see. Which we typical give already in a project booklet at the end of a job, but he wants it linked in the model. We have made a list of important info to make sure we have in the model by using the work sheets. (I don't remember who it was that susgested that, but thanks it was the correct first step)

The Owner understands what LOD 500 is now and agrees that he does not want or need that much detail.

Now I have another question for anyone or everyone. Is LOD 500 a myth, a joke that AIA is proposing with their LOD scale? Just from the comments I have gotten about this question it kind of makes me feel that LOD 500 is impossible to do, so why even have it on the scale. Will this not just cause other lawsuits in a world already full of lawsuits. Is the AIA so far out of touch with the real world they made up a level of detail no one will ever do? Or will one day soon we all be ask to give LOD 500 drawings?

Just something think about

Have a great day

Doug Overfelt

BIM/CAD Manager

SFCS Inc.

305 South Jefferson Street

Roanoke, VA 24011-2003

Office:  540.344.6664

Direct:  540.682.8058

Email: doverfelt@sfcs.com

Website:  www.sfcs.com

SFCS is a full-service architectural, engineering, planning, and

interior design firm that specializes in the design of senior living,

education, health care, and government facilities nationwide.

[Anonymous]

So that everyone knows, I have redefine the scope of work with the Owner and it was as I org thought he was just speaking or repeating something that he had heard from someone else. After a couple meetings now with him and using work sheets to help define the scope, we have decided he just wants an elec copy of the model with as much of the info imbedded as possible. Mainly dealing with the equipment side of things for his management team to use in the future for ordering replacement parts etc. Door types and hardware, windows, ceiling tile, a lot of the physical stuff that you see. Which we typical give already in a project booklet at the end of a job, but he wants it linked in the model. We have made a list of important info to make sure we have in the model.

He understand what LOD 500 is now and agrees that he does not want or need that much detail.

Now I have another question for anyone or everyone. Is LOD 500 a myth, a joke that AIA is proposing with their LOD scale? Just from the comments I have gotten about this question it kind of makes me feel that LOD 500 is impossible to do, so why even have it on the scale. Will this not just cause other lawsuits in a world already full of lawsuits. Is the AIA so far out of touch with the real world they made up a level of detail no one will ever do? Or will one day soon we all be ask to give LOD 500 drawings?

Just something think about
Have a great day

Doug Overfelt
BIM/CAD Manager

SFCS Inc.
305 South Jefferson Street
Roanoke, VA 24011-2003
Office: 540.344.6664
Direct: 540.682.8058
Email: doverfelt@sfcs.com
Website: www.sfcs.com

SFCS is a full-service architectural, engineering, planning, and
interior design firm that specializes in the design of senior living,
education, health care, and government facilities nationwide.

CONNECT
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[chrisplyler]

In my head, according to my personal definition of LOD-500, based on the understanding that it's the "highest" standard, for something like a door closer, a good example would be...

...A complete set of parts and assembly files from something like Soldiworks or Inventor that is adequate for accurate, from-scratch creation of a new unit. In other words it's going to have a callout/data for every standard o-ring, bushing, washer, fastener, etc. It's going to have toleranced dimensions, material specifications and any unique manufacturing requirements called out for each bespoke part.

Now, can that be done in a Revit model? Well, excepting dimension values smaller than Revit will tolerate, yeah I guess it could in theory be done. But oh my gosh who would ever want to? To imagine somebody fleshing out a complete building to that degree? It's sheer lunacy!!!!!

But then again, in building design, that whole door closer becomes a standard unit, and only needs one callout (as it is only one small part of the whole building) so that the building model/drawings itself, as the final product, is "adequate for accurate, from-scratch creation of a new unit." So from that perspective, it isn't nearly so daunting a task. If the only thing it means is that the Owner wants to click on the (very gererically and simply modeled) door closer, and be able to find out the manufacturer's name and model number, then it's not that big of a deal at all really.

So I think the term LOD-500 must be considered somewhat flexible based on the context.

[JADAstudio]

Even more dangerous are PMs and PICs who, upon overhearing or mis-understanding a conversation about LOD, work commitments to inappropriate Levels of Development into their proposals for architectural or engineering design services. As a BIM manager I would be very interested in reviewing *all* outgoing proposals and contracts for such language.

Much beyond LOD300 or LOD350 the responsibility for modeling generally shifts to entities other than architects. For an owner or client to ask an architect to author a model at LOD500 immediately identifies their lack of understanding about how the higher Levels of Development work within the context of a building project.

I think it's even a stretch to expect architects to coordinate a model with elements at LOD500 since much of that is authored by fabricators and installers downstream of our traditional contractual boundaries. In a truly integrated project delivery environment someone with architectural training and experience might be the best qualified to do this but I just don't see it happening in an environment where there is contractual separation between design and construction entities.

LOD500 is a valuable metric. It brackets conversations about appropriate LOD during design and provides a continuity of vocabulary when engaging manufacturers, fabricators, and installers in the BIM / IPD paradigm.