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Large frame generator frame lagging/crashing often

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Message 1 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
1284 Views, 28 Replies

Large frame generator frame lagging/crashing often

Hi,

 

I've got a large frame that I've been making in frame generator by use of multiple 3D sketches/2D sketches as I noticed that if my sketch gets too large, even placing components starts to lag. I have a lot of  reference loops and adaptive components but even if I turn off the adaptation they still lag profusely. This is a PC with a 3080 RTX and Ryzen 5900X... it shouldn't lag.

 

Could someone possibly have a look at it for me? It's taking huge amounts of my time and it's very stressful. Any help is appreciated, cheers.

28 REPLIES 28
Message 2 of 29
cadman777
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

Please post a screen capture of your model, and also post a 'pack and go' of the model (if it's not proprietary) for the experts to look at. Thanx...

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 3 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: cadman777

Hi Cadman,

 

It's in an unfinished form so it should be fine. I will attach a pack & go within the next 20 or so minutes. Honestly if someone could figure this out it would be life changing for me.

 

Cheers!

Message 4 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: cadman777

Hello again CADMAN,

 

Please see attached pack & go of the frame.

 

It was made in inventor 2021.

 

Cheers

Message 5 of 29
cadman777
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

Thanx.

I can't look at newer file son my older Inventor.

So if you could provide a screen shot I would be grateful.

I requested the dataset for others in here who can view your 3dmodel and comment.

I've used FG extensively, so if I see a pic of what you did, including your ModelTree, I may be able to make some suggestions w/o having to see your 3dmodel.

Thanx...

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 6 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: cadman777

Hi again Cadman,

 

Got it - please see below images.

 

mcook21VD9DL_1-1627517513557.png

mcook21VD9DL_2-1627517539811.png

mcook21VD9DL_3-1627517549432.png

mcook21VD9DL_4-1627517580774.png

 

 

Let me know if you need something more specific.

 

Cheers

Message 7 of 29
gcoombridge
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

I haven't looked at the file-set because I'm a bit snowed under today - I would just say I avoid 3D-Sketches for FG skeletons because in my experience it causes alignment issues. 3D Sketch elements don't have a set alignment about their own axis.

Use iLogic Copy? Please consider voting for this long overdue idea (not mine):https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/inventor-ideas/string-replace-for-ilogic-design-copy/idi-p/3821399
Message 8 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: gcoombridge

Hi thanks for your response,

In the main assembly I just constrain the skeleton ipt file and then ground it/work around it. This is how I've tried to combat the issue you're talking about, along with rigorously constraining my sketched lines to planes.

 

Cheers

Message 9 of 29
cadman777
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

Thanx for the pics!

Let me get back to you first thing tomorrow when I have more time to write up my thoughts.

I've done structures like this before and there's a few ways I've successfully done them, albeit with caveats for each method.

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 10 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: cadman777

Thanks Cadman!

I'm unsure what I've done but it seems to want to run a bit better currently. Also on the FEA side, I have just taken my thin bodies as shell elements to greatly reduce the nodes from 1.5 million to 700 thousand-ish. Though the deflection looks correct, the stress I'm seeing on my 25mm thick mild steel feet with a pressure load of 150kPa looks a too small at around 1-2MPa combined with lateral and horizontal force loads of around 10000N each. Typically I would expect to see something like 10-20MPa at least, but I only normally deal with solid bodies even if they are thin walled beams.

 

Should I try running it as a solid again?

Cheers

Message 11 of 29
cadman777
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

I didn't know you're doing stress analysis on your frameworks. I don't have stress analysis in my Inventor. I've never used it over the years, and did all my calcs by hand. But we always had a PE check our calcs and sign-off on them for the state/county/city, etc. So I can't offer any suggestions on that piece of your project.

 

Your video card looks like it's a monster, so it should work well. I've run AMD processors in my internet computers over he years, but they don't do so well w/Inventor and other CAD heavy weights. I'm not saying your 4.8ghz processor isn't up to the task. But it may not be as powerful as an Intel i7 or better. When I used an equivalent AMD w/Inventor I noticed it was 1/2 to 2/3 the speed of an Intel. Anyway, I assume you're not going to change computers any time soon.

 

For a STRUCTURAL STEEL project there's a few different ways I would approach it, depending on the level of detail you need.

 

If you're going to go from analysis to fabrication drawings, and if you do these STRUCTURES frequently, then Inventor is DEFINITELY NOT the software you want to use. Instead, depending on the size and complexity of your structures, you are going to want to use one of the STRUCTURAL STEEL programs, such as ParaBuild, AdvanceSteel, Tekla (in ascending order of price-point) or any of the other contenders. Only thing is, they're quite pricey. If you've never used any of them before now, you can download and trial a student version of Tekla for free. It's pretty easy to model in, but doing drawings and the other stuff is a real PITA (steep leraning curve). I did a trial on ParaBuild up to intermediate level skill, and it was a bit better, but didn't have the full functionality that Tekla does. I don't know about AS or any of the others. Tekla has this amazing concrete/rebar module that beats everything I've seen! In any case, 'you have to pay to play'. You'll know what I mean when you see the prices. If I did a lot of STRUCTURAL jobs, I would get Parabuild for the level that I 'play' at.

 

Assuming you're not interested in STRUCTURAL programs, this is how I would approach your project:

 

1. The first thing to note is, Inventor SUCKS at STRUCTURAL work, primarily b/c of 3 factors:

       a) It has no CONNECTIONS

       b) It can't make AUTOMATIC DRAWINGS (esp. BEAM/COLUMN weldments & DETAIL drawings)

       c) It can't make BOMS like it needs to, and customizing it to do so is a LOT of work

(Example: One project I did in Inventor had 70 D-sized sheets of drawings. It was UNBEARABLE doing it in Inventor compared to if I had a STRUCTURAL STEEL program!)

 

2. there are 3 basic ways I found to approach this kind of work:

       a) One gigantic FG (FrameGenerator) assembly with all details inside it that you break apart at the very end when you're all finished using the DEMOTE command to create individual assemblies of all the weldments or assemblies that the GA (general arrangement/top-level) assembly contains. 

       b) A structured FG assembly containing weldments and assemblies that you make on an individual basis and place into the GA assembly

       c) A structured NON-FG assembly like 'b)' above.

 

I prefer a combination of b) & c) above. There's a LONG thread in this forum on 'a)' above, but I can't find it to link you to it, sorry. But you have to invest an unbelievable amount of time into a LIBRARY of CONNECTIONS and PARTS to do it that way.

 

In your case, since you're using Inventor to do calcs, you may want one model to do calcs, and then make another model for detailing/fabrication. That way you can keep your FEA model SIMPLE and then dress-out your DETAILING model to the last nut and bolt. The level of detail in your DETAILING model will KILL your FEA processing overhead.

 

Any way you do this kind of STRUCTURAL project will be a drain on your computer resources. But I found if you structure the GA properly, you will cut way down on the computing overhead. For example:

 

1. You can make one GA 'master sketch' for the entire structure (like you did), but don't use any 3D Sketches (like @gcoombridge says), b/c they really KILL processor power). Also, don't use any Surfaces for the same reason. Use as few Work features as possible, and keep all 2D sketches a simple as possible.

 

2. Identify all your individual WELDMENTS and ASSEMBLIES (e.g., stairs, railings, x-braces, beams, columns, etc.) and Derive your GA ipt file into an iam file and make each weldment/assembly as a stand-alone part in the GA, then Ground it in your GA assembly when finished.

 

3. Combine all weldments and assemblies that belong together into a single assembly so you cut down on the number of assemblies in your GA assembly. Example: stairs + l.h. railing + r.h. railing + supports = one STAIRS assembly. That's 4 assemblies reduced down to 1 assembly. That means you have only 1 assembly instead of 4  in your GA Assembly.

 

4. The idea behind '3.' is to think about this in terms of PHASES of construction and/or FABRICATION. You're setting your model up for easier drawing production for the shop, and for CONSTRUCTION phases. You can segment out your project for easier building and construction.

 

5. Make one beam and column assembly for all duplicates, and copy them and constrain them where they belong in the GA assembly. Some of them you may be able to use assembly Arrays. That cuts WAY down on computing overhead.

 

6. Connections are tricky. You can combine welded clips/knife_plates/etc. w/the beams or braces into an assembly, as well as combining bolted clips/knife_plates/etc. w/the beams or braces into an assembly/weldment, b/c that's how you detail them. Or, you can do it the hard way and put ALL loose clips (etc.) into the GA assembly and use ViewReps to represent the assembly (this may not work in 2020 and newer, I don't know b/c I don't use it). I use ViewReps as a LAST RESORT b/c of the down-stream headaches when making drawings.

 

7. Add all fasteners to a separate assembly, or add all fasteners to the GA assembly. But make sure you can turn them off in your GA assembly, due to the computing overhead they cause. Same w/all small details, esp. the ones that are hidden (like clips).

 

That's a general overview of how I would approach your project. It's possible the reason you have such bad overhead is that you're doing FEA inside Inventor, and the computing overhead is kicking your butt. In that case, you may want to try to close the program and reopen it. If that doesn't help, I would try closing the program and shutting down the computer, then restarting and reopening Inventor. That way you can DUMP the memory and SEVER all processing threads. If someone else in here can open your assembly, they'd be able to tell you what level of overhead it has, so you'll get an idea of how much drag it puts on your their system in comparison.

 

There's much more to be said on this subject, but I'll leave it at that for now. I have many years of ANGST against Autodesk for NEGLECTING the STRUCTURAL DETAILING aspect of Inventor. Like I said, if I had a steady flow of structural work, I'd use ParaBuild to do it. But from what I've seen in ParaBuild and Tekla, they are not very good at MISCELLANEOUS structural work. By 'MISCELLANEOUS structural work' I mean custom stairs, railings, awnings, and things like that. And I certainly wouldn't use them for ARCHITECTURAL miscellaneous structural work!

 

Hope this helps...

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 12 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: cadman777

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks a lot, that was very insightful!

 

Cheers

Message 13 of 29
3D4Play
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

I will only offer a reply to the extent that I turned on your screen and placed a structural tube on the line shown in my screen shot. In my 5 minutes with it, I see absolutely no lag, no delays, nothing that makes me think anything is amiss. It moves around with my 3D mouse, zooms, pans, and places components using the FG with no delay.

 

I have a windows 10 system running on a I7-6850K with 64 MB of RAM and an lowly GeForce 1050Ti running dual screen. I definitely have more issues from my system on my models than I have on my system with your models. If there is something specific you want me t try, just describe the workflow and I'll try it, but - so far - this is no strain.

 

3D4Play_0-1627621847111.png

 

Message 14 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: 3D4Play

Hi 3D,

 

Thanks for your response, honestly it's so temperamental. I can zoom around without worry until I place a beam or something, sometimes it'll delay like 0.5 seconds, other times 15 seconds...really depends on the time of day I suppose. I really wish I knew why.

 

I still have the API issue thing loading forever when I accidentally move something (that doesn't actually move).

 

Message 15 of 29
3D4Play
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

OK, Are you placing structural members via frame generator, or are you
placing content center content?  Are you using vault or local desktop
content?
Message 16 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: 3D4Play

Hi again,

 

Placing members via frame generator, through google drive that is in offline mode so technically desktop?

 

Cheers

Message 17 of 29
cadman777
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

"Placing members via frame generator, through google drive that is in offline mode so technically desktop?"

If you're on a network, then you're doomed!

 

In my experience, you can't model without serious bottlenecks if you're modeling from a server that's not dedicated to CAD and specifically dedicated to the power users on the CAD network. It never crossed my mind that 3d designers would work off a network. I quit doing that 25 years ago!

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 18 of 29
mcook21VD9DL
in reply to: cadman777

I don't believe I'm working off of a network.

 

The offline mode has you working from your desktop, and the changes you make get synced back to the cloud when you ave. That's how I understand it.

 

https://www.guidingtech.com/what-does-make-available-offline-mean-google-drive/

Message 19 of 29
PJKeeffe
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

I am also experiencing serious lag time and frozen screens with large scale  frame generator (990 instances/600 parts)-which  is  leading huge frustration.

Have applied LODs but this has not helped. Like mcook21VD9DL I am using combination of 2D and 3D sketches which have not been a problem in the past as I often align the member with   geometry or another member.

Ironically I often get  Error message telling me there is a problem and I should contact the forum.

Hardware- Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz 3.79 GHz- 64Mb RAM- Quadro RTX 400 Video card

Inventor 2021.3.2

Regards

Pat.K

Message 20 of 29
SharkDesign
in reply to: mcook21VD9DL

Is that one single frame? Who's welding all that?

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