What is really possible with T-Splines.....

[PhilProcarioJr]

So some coworkers keep talking about how limited T-Splines usefulness is. To be honest it's not limitations of T-Splines or Fusion it's the person using them and their knowledge of the tools. I have even seen post here on the boards downing on T-Splines. 

So anyways a friend challenged me to a bet, he claims I can not get the orc head model from Topogun into Fusion 360 as a CAD model fully editable. The head is made up of over a million polygons. Almost 2 million. Here is what the highres model looks like.

The challenge was two fold:

1st part is to model the head using only Fusion 360 and that's what I am going to post today. 

2nd part is I can use whatever tools I have as long as I end up with a fully editable CAD model.

So anyways here is what I came up with after 3 hours in Fusion Sculpt environment using just T-Splines.

Here is a video showing that the T-Spline mesh is fully editable:

I am not happy with this at all but I think it's a good start. More to come....

Cheers

[PhilProcarioJr]

@Anonymous

"At least it will stop Phil complaining about me using a Mac! Still got a long way to go until I can get nere Phils set up though!"

I'm building a new setup that's going to be way better then my current setup.

"What aspects of that part are T Splines?"

Well the model was built using solid and surface modeling but because the surfacing in Fusion is lacking I converted the entire model into a T-Spline control cage to fix surfaces defects and the fact that Fusion couldn't produce a fillet I needed.

I will post the control cage later.

Here is the final Pintle Hook.

[PhilProcarioJr]

This would have been hard to do without T-Splines...Chain link done entirely in Fusion.

[PhilProcarioJr]

@Anonymous

Here is the T-Spline I worked from...

[TrippyLighting]

I had expected a "simpler" control cage.  You did not by any chance re-topologize that after you created the initial mesh and then used that in Fusion 360  ?

[0502880]

Thank's Phil for a example of a "production ready" T-Spline model! I'm a little bit confused about all kind "training" videos and sample files where you see directly, that those products couldn't never been put to any kind (consumer goods) production. Of course I understand well, that there is so different kind of needs for 3D models, but I'm always happy to see those "production ready" samples. I haven't yet found any good training videos, where you will get some ideas how to solve problems with "kinky" T-Spline surfaces and get out accurate models. If I remember right, you Phil mentioned in some thread, that you have some plans to do that kind training material...

In this thread is also quite a lot discussion about T-Spline tools, is there lack of some important tools; I think it's only experts like you who can evaluate that. And I hope and believe, that there is several professionals in Fusion development team who have clear vision about the development direction. The use of IdeaStation is basically good, but hopefully the dev team experts have their own clear path where Fusion should go and IdeaStation should give only some extras to development path.

About mesh tools importance couldn't say that much, somehow I feel that it's most important to develop tools for making own 3D models from scratch, not for copying something existing. Of course you need sometimes some imported data where your desing will be matched to, but do you need complicated mesh tools for that, don't know...

The development teams do very important work, and let's hope that we here in community will give them support and good ideas! So we can get the perfect CAD tool for our needs!

[Anonymous]

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@PhilProcarioJr wrote:

@Anonymous

Here is the T-Spline I worked from...

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Wow! 

I see what you were saying the other night about making use of those pole piont's! 

is there another way of keeping the mesh square if you don't use pole piont's? 

I would have thought not! But then I'm green to this still. 

I remember what you said about no more than five faces to intersect at the pole. 

I like the idea of useing poles piont's when needed.  I think it's quite elegant! 

 There was a coment on the other thread about me being a old dog and new tricks! That made me laugh and I spat out my tea! 

If if your not prepared to learn new stuff. Then you might as well not bother at all 

It dawns on me. That my quest for a alterable base model rifle stock. That can have parameters set to modify it to a individual. May be a huge project to get done! 

As you mentioned that a t spline body can't be parametricly altered, I kind of thought so how am I going to do this then? I know I still have a whole heap to learn! 

Im loving the retopolgy though. That's great fun. Shame personal stuff got in the way, I think I would have been a lot father on with that had I been able to sit at work and get going! 

Still this is a Marathon not a sprint. At least it's going now! 

[daniel_lyall]

@Anonymous like phil said it would be good to see non common as mud stocks it's going to be hard but the end will be good by the time you get there fusion will be there.

you just needed to get that fancy router as well.

phil i think doing some instructions on this stuff would be good and charge for it to there is not a lot out there that is of much use.

[PhilProcarioJr]

@TrippyLighting

"I had expected a "simpler" control cage.  You did not by any chance re-topologize that after you created the initial mesh and then used that in Fusion 360  ?"

Here is exactly what I did:

I modeled the majority of this in solids. This particular model has a lot of cross sections that have to be exact...don't ask me why because honestly I don't know...it is just a Pintle hook after all...but I have to make things to the prints.

So I had a lot of issues where the hook splits into a Y. The forms are so different at that section there was no way to get a smooth transition.

The next problem I had was I couldn't add a fillet to the end section of the hook. I even sent the model off to ADSK and they couldn't get it to work either.

The surface looked simple but it has some really complex folds. So anyways I had to move on and get this done.

So I set up the .stl exporter to get me an accurate model and exported it.

This step I normally never do as I personally hate .stl files and the format in general (

Spoiler

but I was testing some stuff for the Autodesk community

).

I opened the .stl model in Zbrush and used the remesher tool. Normally I would have retopologized this in Topogun but I was on a tight schedule and to be honest I didn't need the whole model only the Y section. 

I brought the .obj back into fusion converted it to a T-Spline then to a solid. I cut the model up so I had just the area I needed then stitched everything back into a solid and you see the final result in the renders.

You said you thought it would have been a simpler mesh, I only keep the mesh simple if I am modeling with T-Splines. If I am working with high resolution scans or exported geometry then I use as dense of a mesh as I need to capture accuracy and details. Low resolutions are prone to surface tension (ISOparm drift)...I always remove all surface tension from my models but that is always done at the end. The picture of my control cage was the final phase of it as I didn't save interim steps to show due to lack of time. 

@0502880 @daniel_lyall

I do plan on doing some instruction, the issue I have right now is my work revolves around Fusion, Maya, Zbrush and Topogun.

So the instruction would have to be for Fusion, Blender, and Topogun at a minimum.

My main problem right now is I am testing a lot of stuff for ADSK, working a 12 hour a day job at the Forge, helping here on the forums and running a small business at home all the while making sure I have time for my wife and daughter so time is not a luxury I have right now.

Cheers

[LMD001]

@PhilProcarioJr

Hi Phil,

A full blown T-Splines manual and/or instructions will indeed be very time consuming to make, and after that updating the material to the constant changes and improvements in Fusion 360 will be no easy task

But I agree with Daniel and I guess with many users that such a 'Best T-Splines Practices' manual would be a nice thing to have.

I have been reading the AutoDesk T-Splines manual that comes with Rhino, and it gives good theoretical information on T-Splines. http://www.tsplines.com/support/usermanual.html

There are numerous videos on the subject, some are very useful, others, well, not so much.

In my opinion, the main problem is a general web problem, most of the information is out there, only you have to wade through a lot of, not so useful information, to find what you really need.

Best regards,

Ludo

[PhilProcarioJr]

@LMD001

You couldn't be more correct....I know because I waded through all that info to use T-Splines in Fusion and although T-splines are very powerful in Fusion they can also be very limited depending on your needs from them. I'm not even sure the stuff I do with them was their intended use but I see them as a tool to get an end result that fit my needs. I use them so often anymore that I'm not even sure I could do without them.

I'm planning on doing a bunch of free tutorials and putting them on my website I am currently building. Then I plan to do a complete project from start to finish and document the entire process in a volume of tutorials. The main issue I have is Fusion is always changing so it's a moving target, but updating the web page I feel will be the fastest way to keep the info current.

I still feel most people don't use T-Splines much because they don't know how to use them and just jumping into T-Splines can be a chore if it's all new to you.

Honestly though they can be an invaluable tool for so many things it's a shame they are so shrouded in mystery.....

[LMD001]

Hi Phil,

The website is a very good idea, also target audience will be much more manageable.

Looking very much forward!

But, quality time with wife and daughter, ... maybe better than T-Splines, ... you could model them though... 

Best regards,

Ludo

[PhilProcarioJr]

@LMD001

"The website is a very good idea, also target audience will be much more manageable.

Looking very much forward!"

I hope you have an open mind and love learning new things because it's a wild ride! 

"But, quality time with wife and daughter, ... maybe better than T-Splines, ... you could model them though... "

My family always comes first, they are so supportive of my work. Not sure I could do it without them.

The project I'm going to be working on is very advanced stuff, but I feel confident that if someone can complete that project they should be able to do just about anything with T-Splines.

[Anonymous]

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@daniel_lyall wrote:

@Anonymous like phil said it would be good to see non common as mud stocks it's going to be hard but the end will be good by the time you get there fusion will be there.

you just needed to get that fancy router as well.

phil i think doing some instructions on this stuff would be good and charge for it to there is not a lot out there that is of much use.

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@daniel_lyall

That's for sure. 

I spent the morning at Bisley last Saturday. 

Two comomon elements will emerge with the good target shooters. 

1. 10,000 rounds of practise! 

2. Properly fitted stock! 

The rifle industry went on a stupid path after the major wars of the last century. 

Accountants tock over and the idea of a stock fitting a person became expencive. 

So now one size fits no-one! 

What at I aim to do is turn the clock back 150 years but do it with digital design! 

problem there is my cad skills are poor! Well so far as organic modelling I have no experience at all. And there's lots of organic curves in a gun stock. 

Plus you need to cut inlets to a very high degree of accuracy or you will then have to bed a action to get it to fit properly (lazy way of a half assed job for Inletting in my book) 

so the interaction between cad type design and the value of mesh type modelling is invaluable. Plus I came at this from a marksman perspective not a designers. So basically I have a blank page to start on! 

@PhilProcarioJr doesn't show some of the stuff he has done on this forum.

What's left out can be only discribed as digital cad accurate ART! 

It goes way beyond the standard cad world. 

The one thing Phil, said to me in April. 

"Open your mind and get as many digital tools you can" 

It's clear that fusion hasent got it all yet. Maybe it will maybe it won't!

One thing is for sure. It could do.

But as this thread highlights fusion can facilitate a amazing work flow. But is just one tool in the box! 

I would love to do a whole gun stock in t splines ultimately in fusion. But I'm unsure whether t spines can be driven by datums. For my requirement would be a datum model that is then altered to a customers requirements. That would make each rifle unique to the owner. 

Can T splines be driven from a datum piont(s)? You can record a persons measurements but reflecting that into the finished design is a tricky one from my current knowlage stance!  

I hope to learn what I need to to do that. 

[daniel_lyall]

@PhilProcarioJr family first man, I don't use T splines at all there is nothing that can take me from a scan to a solid or from a .stl to a obj to a t spline to solid. I just leave it alone too I have something that can get me where I want to be.

@Anonymous the 3 main stocks that are out there are ok but it's the same as a martini henry, ruger and smith and westion from a 100 plus years ago, 

I have seen a gun collection that has guns from the 1600 to 1940's the stocks are very similar all the way through, there is 1700 guns to compare.

[Anonymous]

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@daniel_lyall wrote:

@PhilProcarioJr family first man, I don't use T splines at all there is nothing that can take me from a scan to a solid or from a .stl to a obj to a t spline to solid. I just leave it alone too I have something that can get me where I want to be.

@Anonymous the 3 main stocks that are out there are ok but it's the same as a martini henry, ruger and smith and westion from a 100 plus years ago, 

I have seen a gun collection that has guns from the 1600 to 1940's the stocks are very similar all the way through, there is 1700 guns to compare.

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True that! 

Stock design has not changed much over the last one hundred years. why? 

I want to change that in ways that I would like to see it done. 

Reference scans and being a base for the design! There not! In fact they are a crouch to lean on and be lazy with. 

The only thing I think mine are good for since using fusion 360 cam is the fact they can now be used for my retopology study! 

Then when they become a solid they will be a useful again in some small degree! 

They are a starting piont at least! 

it will be a great day when I have a base model and change some parameter to fit the prescription of my customer! 

On that day! My efforts will be worth some thing! 

Thats the day I will be free of scanning a current stock to have somthing to make! 

I think  @PhilProcarioJr & @TrippyLighting have a idea on how I can achive what I want to do. But I want to work my way towards it. I'm happy to follow the yellow brick road. 

I realy want to know WHY I do some thing when designing a stock, as well as how! 

[PhilProcarioJr]

More progress on the spine...

[Anonymous]

@PhilProcarioJr

As I know what your intended end purpose is for this. All I can say is I want to be there when it happens! Please give me warning so I can book my ticket over! 

I have to say mate. This thread has realy got me thinking about my ultimate goal! I can see a t spline project that can make a difference coming before I reach my ultimate goal model. 

Which sets my focus harder on what I'm doing now! 

So for a bit of break time I was browsing through you tube looking for t spline vids to watch when I came across this. https://youtu.be/

Btw.  My assignment is coming on well now! I aim to have it finished end of week, well at least have all the shells in place. Ready for your inspection. 

I will send you some screen shots and updated files as a I go. That back shell got me a bit yesterday but I hit the email send button then and had a cuppa tea and  saw it staring me in the face. It's fixed now. 

Back on topic. 

I would be interested to know the difference between fusion T Splines and Rhino T Splines.! 

In any case it looks like I better get that PC sorted sooner than later! 

[jeff_strater]

Looking good, Phil.  Dating myself here, but seeing this reminds me of this toy from my childhood:

Is this where this project is headed?

Jeff

[PhilProcarioJr]

@jeff_strater

This project is what I feel is the next level in my studies. I have to constantly be pushing the boundaries of what I know or I get very bored. I have designed and built all kinds of stuff, 3d printers, 4 axis cnc machines, drones,  and lately I have been fascinated by robotics. The human body IMHO is the ultimate machine and now I want to build one to replicate human movement. That's the long term project.

Short term project is a statue I'm calling the "Angel of Death" from a story I wrote 18 years ago. It's kind of like a steam punk Grim reaper. I want to make a limited run of them to sell.

[daniel_lyall]

I should get you to do the arm mounts for my zero G wheelchair arms