There should be an Auto 2D Drawing dimensioning function in Fusion 360.

There should be an Auto 2D Drawing dimensioning function in Fusion 360.

CLmoss
Collaborator Collaborator
15,193 Views
142 Replies
Message 1 of 143

There should be an Auto 2D Drawing dimensioning function in Fusion 360.

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

There should be a Auto 2D Drawing dimensioning function in Fusion 360.  I mean, if we designed it already in Fusion, then the dimensions are all there in the files, even in the STEP files.   We have to design the project twice to get a set of dimensioned Drawings. A true automated system would do this for you.

 

If it exists then I have not found it.  Point me to it.

 

Accepted solutions (2)
15,194 Views
142 Replies
Replies (142)
Message 121 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Here is some background music for when you are working this weekend. 

Ahhh the early 1970s.  Work music. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HDdiz8MU8o

 

 

0 Likes
Message 122 of 143

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

That work sheet will be very handy I have book marked them all, I have a had finger look like that it got stuck under 2 tonne of steel and did not break.


Win10 pro | 16 GB ram | 4 GB graphics Quadro K2200 | Intel(R) 8Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 v3 @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz

Daniel Lyall
The Big Boss
Mach3 User
My Websight, Daniels Wheelchair Customisations.
Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn

0 Likes
Message 123 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

I would like to hear some feedback on this from people who have experience in this area.  

So my post with the class on bending math clearly suggests that k factor as well as Bend Allowance, Bend Angle, Bend Radius has to do with the following:
1) Material being bent
2) Thickness of that material
3) Bend angle

It is saying that it has nothing to do with the machines being used.  The machines must be designed to function at a specific level. 

 

What I keep hearing is that the k factor, for example, is like a secret formula.  "Oh, we have our numbers we design to".

Then they want to charge you $1,600 to do alter your sheet metal design to fit their machines.

 

After watching this guy's class on the topic, it seems like what I am hearing from the sheet metal shops is just a lot of BS.  

Of course, there are minimum numbers, but if you don't go there, if you use instead numbers that don't push the limits, will you not be OK? 

This starts to sound like Coke's secret formula. 

 

Anyone?

 

 

0 Likes
Message 124 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Daniel, 

I think that Flange has stopped working again.  Can you check on your side?

It is the same problem we had last night where you cannot get Flange to recognize the part. 

It is 9:13 pm PST local time. 

 

@promm where are you....?

 

Jim

0 Likes
Message 125 of 143

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

will do it's 4.32 pm here sunday yes I am in the future 

 

It almost failed I had to click on the sketch 3 times for it to work on the first go after that it is working each time, and fusion whent funny for a few sec at the sametime.

 

you need to start a new thread on the non selection bug and do a screencast and link back to this post and post number for the vid I posted for the crash at the end the other part of that vid has been fixed.

 

There seems to be a bug there 

 


Win10 pro | 16 GB ram | 4 GB graphics Quadro K2200 | Intel(R) 8Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 v3 @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz

Daniel Lyall
The Big Boss
Mach3 User
My Websight, Daniels Wheelchair Customisations.
Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn

0 Likes
Message 126 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Not here.  I just checked it.  I tried clicking on it 3 times too.  

 

What is your sequence of events?  I can try that too. 

Maybe I am not doing the same thing.  

(I got it to work here, but after trying different things.  Different from what I had to do last night.)

 

 

You are the one who does great videos.  Start a new thread.  Just note hit here with a link to that thread.  I will see you there. 

 

Jim 

 

 

0 Likes
Message 127 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

One shop has said in response to my suggestion that the secret formula k factor is just a way to keep clients from wandering was this. 

 

"The largest determinants are the width of the bottom die and the punch tip radius.  Not every shop has the same tooling."

 

Anyone ever deal with this issue he mentions?  Is it actually significant enough to be an issue

Jim

 

PS:  Since I have not seen anyone else bring up these issues or address the validity of such issues, I would like to see some Kudos here.  I am doing all of this leg work.  I don't know if Kudos count for anything, but it would make me feel like someone was listening.   

0 Likes
Message 128 of 143

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

Anyone that's done sheet metal professionally has seen these things!

It might be legwork for a noob.

If you haven't noticed, in this thread you are mostly taking to yourselves. Do yo wonder what that is ?


EESignature

Message 129 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Well, I expect credible contributors to add to the conversation here.  You never do.  With you it is all about the big putdown.  At least I know you are following the thread.  

 

I am sure it has never occurred to you that this is a public thread which many read and will read in the future.  Knowing something and not mentioning it, does not help future readers.  I have not seen any threads that deal with this issue of bottom die and the punch tip radius.  In fact, I don't think you have either.  You bet I am a noob in this area. Maybe you should write Autodesk and tell them not to sell product to noobs.  I am sure they would like that.  It would be right up your alley to say that.  See, that would include students too.  What a marketing approach.  

 

I seem to remember asking you not to comment on my posts here in the past.  Daniel and I cover a lot of detail here.  The people who contribute here are very positive.  As you have not contributed anything positive here, that would not include you.  

 

By the way, in you post, the word is spelled "Talking" with an L, not "Taking.  Crack open a book sometime.

 

In fact, let me help you with your post.

 

"Anyone that's done sheet metal professionally has seen these things!

It might be legwork for a noob.

If you haven't noticed, in this thread you are mostly taking to yourselves. Do yo wonder what that is ? "

 

This has several problems.  

1)  Do yo wonder what that is ?  should read, Do you wonder why that is?  That has two issues.  First, YO in place of YOU. Second, the use of What where it is proper to use Why. 

2) I have already covered your spelling of your word Taking which, in English at least, should be Talking. 

 

Someone here, a photographer, wants to know if you purposely used a fisheye lens to make your head look like a horse pill?  

 

0 Likes
Message 130 of 143

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

@CLmoss wrote:

 

 

By the way, in your post, the word is spelled "Talking" with an L, not "Taking.  Crack open a book some time.  

 


 

He He, pretty funny 😉


EESignature

0 Likes
Message 131 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

My God!  He laughs!  Is it possible that there is a lighter side to this person after all?  

 

To my original post.  Why is it you have to have been around sheet metal "Professionally" to know about this.  I posted a link to a class on the topic which made no mention of this, that I could see.  Again, this should be called out in the Sheet Metal videos for Fusion or Solidworks.  What is the point of addressing k factor if you also have to call out the tooling used at each shop?  All of the math that goes into this becomes useless.  Unless, it has such a small impact on the k factor and the bend deduction that it is not worth mentioning.  

 

If I want to strip off insulation from a 12 gauge solid copper wire, I use a stripper that had a 12 gauge wire stripper in it.   Should it not be expected of sheet metal shops to do similar with their tooling when they decide to bend a sheet of aluminum?  Are these sheet metal shops or slop metal shops?  

 

 

0 Likes
Message 132 of 143

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

If it's a shop that puts out quality the dies cost a ****e load of money to buy or make, so they will only have what's needed for their regular customers, and the one off or low volume customers will have to do to what the shop has in stock in the way of dies, they will have standard sizes that you can work to or they will just wont the drawing of what's need or solid model and they will do the rest of what's needed for you.

 

It will be like this because of the cost of buying or making dies and the amount of time need for setup if they had a job that needed one part made and they had the wrong size in the machine and the next job was different again, they wont get much done but if they had say 4 different sizes they work to then they may stack jobs up and get a lot done so the cost of doing 1 off parts is dirt cheap other wise big $$$.

 

This is also down to not haveing apprenticeships in the past the apprentices would of done the setup and the operator would off check the machine and done the bending then went and did something else and the apprentices would of done the change over.

 

Education and experiences plus = $$$$$$


Win10 pro | 16 GB ram | 4 GB graphics Quadro K2200 | Intel(R) 8Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 v3 @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz

Daniel Lyall
The Big Boss
Mach3 User
My Websight, Daniels Wheelchair Customisations.
Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn

Message 133 of 143

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

First, let me apologize for my post that triggered your outburst!

I am tempted to say that I don't know what triggered it, but I' be lying. I know exactly what triggered it!
Lets keep it at that and get back to the topic.

 

The initial title speaks about auto dimensioning not sheet metal bending, but never mind. I stick to what I said in my first reply. There is a reason that I said what I said and it based on more than 3 decades of experience in the field. Auto dimensioning is only "really" possible when the design intent is captured in the sketches and the way they are dimensioned in the sketches and in the design history. That capture of design intent is often different from manufacturing method and dimensioning a drawing is usually a mixture if trying to convey design intend and manufacturing methods.

A STEP file which only contains BRep data, meshes or surfaces but does not contain any design history, only geometry. You cannot judge the design intent and the manufacturing intent purely by looking at geometry, which is the end result of a design process. Heck most CAD systems do not even manage decent feature recognition in more complex geometry.

 

This is not a deterministic problem that can be solved with a simple algorithm. One day AI and builtin expert knowledge will surely be able to help that aspect but until then we're stuck with what we have. In Fusion 360 you can design fine in direct modeling mode without a timeline. Sketches are not associative with the geometry thus would be dangerous to use for data used in auto dimensioning.

 

To close this chapter, I've worked for a company that had over 200 seats of Solid Works. I don't know a single engineer that really truly enjoys dimensioning drawings. In fact most hate and despise it! Thus a lot of brain effort has gone into research of how it can be accomplished. If this would be trivial it'd been solved 20 years ago.

 

 

Let's move on to the sheets metal problem you are encountering. Welcome to the world of small volume manufacturing!!!

 

In high volume manufacturing usually  lot of data is recorded, stored and evaluated, often in real time to see if the manufacturing processes are in statistical process control.

Tooling is very purpose built, qualified for and troughout production  through stringent qualification checks against known, calibrated standards.

 

Tooling is designed using known design standards and formulae which often are good approximations of real world behavior but still are just approximations. Approximations by nature assume a certain error and often there are enough variables that errors accumulate or even magnify one another. The end result is that the manufactured tooling does not produce parts/product to specifications. Experienced engineers, technicians and machinists usually have an intuitive grasp of what to do to correct the issue. Tooling is modified based on guidance by these experienced people until the product does match the specifications and then drawings and documentation are adapted to reflect tooling reality ( not the other way around !!! ) so a new tool can be manufactured to reflect these realities and product matching specifications  can be produced directly off the tooling without having to go through this often lengthy modification process.

 

The K-Factor is one of these engineering approximations that is used to predict the outcome based on assumptions of actual manufacturing conditions.

It's a fairly simple rule of thumb that works but not always. If your sheetmetal shop is not able to match these precise conditions as it would be too expensive to build purpose build tooling for a one-off or even a small series then these approximations simply fail.

You should not be mad at these sheetmetal shops, you should be happy that they tell you. Those are the guys I'd go back to, because they know what they are doing!

 

Finally, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a noob. We all have to start somewhere!

If one want's to really learn, it is imperative to listen to others and accept their obvious expertise because otherwise one will remain a noob!

 


EESignature

Message 134 of 143

dieselguy65
Collaborator
Collaborator

i'll chime in here, since i have been reading this thread.

my vote, they do not implement any form of auto dimension.

if they do, there needs to be a way to turn it off completely and permanently .

even the simplest of drawings i have made, would become unreadable if the software automatically stuck every dimension on the print.

the dimensions are all there, just click where you want the ones to showup. its not like you have to manually measure each dimension.

 

 

0 Likes
Message 135 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

I understand what both of you are saying here, but I am only using 90 degree bends here.   Everyone should have them.... Right?  I passed your comments on to a couple of shops to see what they have to say.   The drawbacks of small volume orders.  I am ordering 10 for my first purchase.  Then if everything fits together as designed, then I will move forward from there. 

 

What I have heard so far was that the machines, that each shop uses, are different enough to be a problem.  For example, what you are suggesting is more unpredictable as any point in time a shop might have some random tool setup.  However, at least one of these shops posts the k factor they use at their company.  This website doesn't change.  It is a calculator page where you enter the material, the thickness and the bend angle.  Not so random.  Maybe this is related to the machines. 

 

 

I am sure I will hear back from these guys tomorrow. 

 

 

 

0 Likes
Message 136 of 143

dieselguy65
Collaborator
Collaborator

since this has went from wanting auto dimension, to now working with sheet metal, maybe this could be broke into to separate  threads?

 

0 Likes
Message 137 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Daniel,

I just started a new thread called, 

Sheet Metal Issues and Bugs

It is a new thread that concerns possible Bugs or Issues with Fusion Sheet Metal that we find, or think we find, as we use it.  

We were going out of scope on this thread. 

 

See you there. 

 

0 Likes
Message 138 of 143

daniel_lyall
Mentor
Mentor

Will do


Win10 pro | 16 GB ram | 4 GB graphics Quadro K2200 | Intel(R) 8Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 v3 @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz

Daniel Lyall
The Big Boss
Mach3 User
My Websight, Daniels Wheelchair Customisations.
Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn

0 Likes
Message 139 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Imagine making a 90 degree bend in a 5" high sheet of 5052-H32 aluminum which is 17 inches long.  You want to make a lip of 1" on it.  Now imagine you want in a 2 inch section of this 17" sheet of aluminum. You want the 2" section to be in the center of the 17 inches.  For that 2" section you want the lip to be very small, but still there.  The material being bent is 1/16" thick 5052-H32

 

My question is, how small of a lip can a metal shop typically produce cleanly with their tools?    There must be some minimum.  So you have a lip of 1" the length of the sheet.  Then you have this area of 2" where the distance to the sidewall becomes less.  How less can this be?

 

 

0 Likes
Message 140 of 143

CLmoss
Collaborator
Collaborator

Wait wait... I just did it. I was able to use the pencil to change the thickness of the rule.  Great!  

 

 

Daniel,

did you remake this video with higher resolution.  I can't read the text in the Sheet Metal Rules boxes.   A question, did you change the thickness of the sheet metal in this?  I saw you change the corner relief.   Can you change the thickness of the sheet metal after it has been decided by a rule you didn't want to use? 

 

Jim 

0 Likes