Placing a Decal at Correct Scale

[davidcuesta76]

Correct Scale

I have a decal which I have designed in illustrator for a bottle design and saved out as .PNG.

The decal is meant to be 30mm tall. My bottle is 55mm tall. 

I need to know how to import the decal so it is the absolute correct size on the bottle.

Simple enough you would think. However if I take the advice from other posts and make the decal 30px it comes out very low res. 

And even then in imports not really at correct scale. I can manually scale it but that is not very precise.

What is the best tested and true way to get the decal to appear in its actual correct size at hi enough res that it does not look pixelated.

Perhaps I could use a different tool, but I actually just want to place it as a label.

[tom_cleaver2]

Unfortunately, clicking Insert then Decal immediately de-selects offset planes and it's impossible to re-select them.

[Phil.E]

A decal must have a model body to work on. Construction planes are not solid/surface geometry.

If you look closely, when you apply a decal it can slide all over the surface. Is there another application that allows this, and also uses the exact "size" of the image? I'm not aware of one, but if you know it would help me compare apples to apples and provide guidance for development based on your expectations and experiences.

[tom_cleaver2]

Well, yes. Adding decals to construction planes sounded a little odd to me, too. I've heard of stranger workarounds in the past, though. We try these things in good faith and sometimes they suceed.

As for the random sizing of imported images, I simply cannot agree that this is normal or useful. I think the other commentors have said similar.

[Phil.E]

I understand your frustration with the limitations of Decal, just wondering if there happens to be an application that "does it right" for comparison purposes.

[tom_cleaver2]

It's a valid question. I'm afraid I don't really have an answer for you. My background is in Illustrator and Zbrush and Fusion 360 is my first proper CAD program.

With that in mind, though, I expected JPEGs, PNGs, DXFs and SVGs to import at the size they were created, provided the measurement units match. However, whilst JPEGs and PNGs import as canvases just fine, as Decals, they're miniscule. DXFs import in imperial (all my software is set to metric) and once in (and converted) they're often too small and need to be resized to 133%. This 133 percentage unfortunately does not apply to JPEGs and PNGs, though, or else I could factor that into the design stage in advance.

Fusion is a good piece of software and none of these things are dealbreakers, but clients want consistancy, not to have to learn a new set of rules for every image import option. Consistency aids ease of use, and ease of use turns a good piece of software into a great piece of software.

[Phil.E]

Are you using Insert > DXF and getting units mis-match?

[Phil.E]

@tom_cleaver2  Thanks for the details and perspective. 

I've asked for more information about Decal, to see if this request is even technically possible.

[davidcuesta76]

Hi Phil,

Much like other users, I find Fusion so great for modeling that I have pretty much stopped using all other 3D programs. 

Having said that in the long distance past I have used other softwares and could swear that they had image import features that had a relationship to size and an anchor point. Most those softwares are now obsolete though so I don't think they would be good case studies.....anyone remember InfiniD or Form Z.

What I can tell you though is that most people use photoshop (or photoshop clones) for editing and saving raster images.

As such it would probably be a good idea to base any link to image sizes on the way photoshop works.

Points to consider:

- There is a direct relationship between DPI (resolution) and scale in photoshop. 

- In photoshop at 72dpi a file that is 72px wide by 72px wide is 1 inch or 25.4mm

- At 300dpi a file that is 300px wide is 1 inch by 25.4mm

As such my suggestion would be that you try to access the DPI of any imported file and base the scale on that.

As far as positioning goes. Everything else in Fusion is very good as far as position goes. But I imagine you either want to range the placement from the exact middle of the face or from the top left corner of the face. Or perhaps create some kind of grid measurement plane on the face.

Try looking at the way InDesign works for placing an image inside a picture box to give you an idea. Strictly not 3D but the same principle. Most faces for placement will be square but of course not always, but for example in indesign you can make a circular picture box or even and unevenly shaped picture box and you still get scale and measurement tools that work accurately.

Hope this helps.

[Phil.E]

Thanks, all good points. Great actually, to get down to brass tacks. To update: the team that works on Decal does not have any current plans to make heavy changes like this, but I've added this post and your feedback to the backlog issues regarding this very subject matter. This is quite positive, it's just a matter of time. 

One thing that might help greatly: post up images of your uses of decals. Help us understand your use cases and show us with images what impact this has. Plus, decals make great eye candy on 3D designs. 🙂 I will add any images that show consumer style products or other commercial uses of decals to the user story.

[davidcuesta76]

Thanks for your response, I am on summer break right now but will try to upload screen shots when I get back to the office.

As mentioned before though most common case study is packaging or product renders. In our studio we do bottle and box designs with a physical packaging element and a printed label element. Printed labels are designed in illustrator or photoshop then we apply the label to the physical packaging in Fusion as we need to know how it's going to look on a bottle. 

Safe to say when you are designing a can or a bottle that is 100mm tall and the the label is 50mm tall, whether the label is placed 2mm higher or lower or if the label is 5mm bigger or smaller really makes a difference. Either to make the model bigger or smaller or to make the label bigger or smaller.

I am sure I am not the only one doing packaging design with Fusion.

But anyway as others have mentioned seems like a fairly basic standard feature that should just work. And from my last message, it should just a be a pretty quick fix.

- Change or create a reference anchor point for imported decal

- Change scale to be related to DPI instead of scale of face.

Hope you get to it soon, as the texture map work around is really long winded too.

[Anonymous]

Hello, I know this is an old thread but I just found it due to the same decal scaling problems I just started having this week.  Even if we give up on Fusion 360 recognizing some kind of absolute size scale on imported decals, there are still some major problems with the way the decal scaling and shifting UI works.

1) First of all, the scale isn't "persistent" meaning if I scale a decal by 2.0 and find out it's still not big enough, I need to scale it by something like 1.01 or even 1.005 the next time.  So the decal scaling multiplier is cumulative???  Why on Earth would you make it like that, it's just crazy, Man!

2) The shifting utility has hysteresis that makes it impossible sometimes to place the decal exactly where you want it!  What do I mean by this?  Let's say I have to shift my decal by 2mm in the x-direction.  I type 1mm, 2mm, 3mm into the UI and nothing happens!  The decal stays right where it is.  Then when I finally reach 10mm, it makes a huge jump by 10mm and overshoots the target!  Then when I go backwards from 10mm, the same thing happens, 10mm, 9mm, 8mm, etc.. NOTHING!  Then when I get back to 0mm, it jumps back to the original spot.
I would be very willing to give up some kind of "absolute image scaling" which would presumably be able to get the decal at the right size from the start in favor of a scaling and shifting UI that doesn't function like a possessed demon.

[Anonymous]

Let me give some more details on my issue.  I'm trying to place a decal on a surface with lots of holes on it.  I un-check "Chain Faces" so the decal geometry will ignore the holes.  I have white circles in the decal which are supposed to line up exactly with the holes so I can place it accurately.  Here is what I'm talking about:

Decal is either too far in one direction:

Or too far in the other direction:
Whenever I try to move the decal so the white circles overlap the holes, it jumps over the holes for some reason.  Is there a way to fix this?

[Anonymous]

OK, I finally solved this problem.  The problem is that the CENTER of the decal cannot be placed over a hole.  I extended the decal down in the y-direction and cropped it on the other side in the y-direction so that the center wouldn't land on a hole.

[davidcuesta76]

Yes baffling indeed...... IMO the decal feature is just not functional.. a small feature but considering everything else is so good in fusion I’m surprised. 

[Phil.E]

Thanks for the comments and time taken to provide the screenshots and feedback. This is now all added to the case in our backlog to improve decal. To be sure I'm hearing you fully, this is what is captured in the improvement requests:

1. Use a real size to define decal, such as might be found in the image file data.

2. Allow position of decal manipulator over a hole

3. Allow reposition of decal manipulator, as found in commands like Move.

Another workaround for objects with holes in them is tip #34 at precisely 30 min in this class.

https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/courses/AP-2019-60-FUSION-360-TIPS-IN-60-MINUTES

[davidcuesta76]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your message, and to whole team for putting this onto the backlog.

There are various feeds in the forum archive on this subject which I have linked to at bottom of thread.

I don't use holes much so the hole thing is not that much a priority for me, but apparently others are.

As far as position and scale if you try to use it you will see what I mean it really needs fixing.

Position and Scale are different issues so have separated them out. See below.

Re your last point:

3. Allow reposition of decal manipulator, as found in commands like Move.

I can't quite remember how the move tool works, but if I am not mistaken, the move tool does not always remember values either.  I.e. it is cumulative which I never really understood. (Could be wrong.)  So I am not entirely sure if we want it to be the same as the main move tool. R.e. @Anonymous comments.

Thanks again.

_______________________________________

Scale:

- There needs to be a relationship between the original decal picture file dimensions and surface dimension.

(see my earlier posts)

- Needs to have the ability to support Hi Res files, without compromising loading time and affecting the scale. (I.e. if I import a Hi Res file the decal should not become so big that I can't see it.) (Obvs there can be a cap on it.)

Photoshop seems industry standard for photo manipulation so probably a good idea to look at that.

You could have it based on the Pixel size of the file or go the next step and base it of resolution (DPI) of the file, however if someone is not using photoshop that may cause issues (i.e. if no DPI is saved to the file).

- There is a direct relationship between DPI (resolution) and scale in photoshop. 

- In photoshop at 72dpi a file that is 72px wide by 72px wide is 1 inch or 25.4mm

- At 300dpi a file that is 300px wide is 1 inch by 25.4mm

Once placed:

- We need to be able to scale the decal proportionately much like I would be able to scale a sketch object i.e. make sure a rectangle is 100mm vs 103mm. For both height and width or constrain it.

Position.

- Assuming every face has an anchor point the Decal should be positioned somehow to the anchor point. 

(Top left corner or middle seem like obvious choices.)

- Or could be to edge of object.

- We need to be able to position the decal using precise measurements, again using anchor point as a reference.

Changing Align Point:

- The ability to change the anchor point AND the reference point of the graphic would be bonus sweetness.

I.e.

– I can choose if I want the anchor point of graphic to be top left or middle or bottom right etc. (Total of 9 main alignment points, see illustrator, indesign, sketch etc. for examples)

– I can choose the anchor point of the face. I.e. I may want to work from top left or middle and be able to choose myself.

Case study:

I want to place a square 100mm label in the middle of the front of a 400mm w x 600mm h box.

I need to be able to place it and then move it to the middle of face of the box.

Then maybe client decides they want decal at top of the front face instead, I need to be able to go in and type the new postion.

Assuming we use the middle as anchor point after it's placed and saved, I can go back in and edit the decal and type in -250mm and it moves up. 

Then lets say the client wants to move it down to leave a 20mm margin from edge of box after a render, then when I go back in to edit it I need to know that it's at -250mm so I can move it back down 20mm. I would then go and type +20mm (or -230mm.)

Get your team to go into illustrator or indesign and just do the exercise above with 1 rectangle and an artboard and see how it works there.

You make and object and you can move it around and just type in coordinates using transform tool box.

Other threads:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-ideastation-archived/adding-advanced-parameters-to-decals/...

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-ideastation-archived/decal-mapping/idc-p/7729152#M30275

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-design-validate/strange-decal-scaling/m-p/7740878#M148118

[Phil.E]

That is a lot of info, thanks.

What I mean by reposition the manipulator:

• Commands like Move allow you to place the triad/manipulator anywhere on the model. 
• Decal always places the manipulator in the center of the decal.
• This blocks you from placing a decal on a round object, like a wheel, with a hole in the center, even if you have chain faces turned "off".
  • Unless you use tip #34 from the Fusion academy class.

[davidcuesta76]

Hi Phil,

Ok I see, to be honest we stopped using decal and just started doing it in Photoshop afterwards instead, so I have not used Decal for a while.

Just to be 100% clear, since you're looking at it, we would really also appreciate it to work on round objects too. I can see how this might be challenging, but at least a cylinder would just be a flattened rectangle.

Our main case studies are packaging which is basically putting a label on a bottle and I imagine that is what a lot of people will be doing with a decal too.

Anyway, good luck with it and thank you again.

[mark.j]

I have come across the situation of having to get a decal on a fusion 360 created cylinder shape such as a bottle label.
In Fusion360, importing a png to be used as a decal will not import in as the size it was created. if you make a 3" X 3" decal, import it, it will be a different size.

SO my work around is simple.

in front of your object, create a sketch, sketch a box with the dimensions that you want your label.

create your label to the exact dimensions you want.

import that image as a png to the face of the object in Fusion.

then scale the png decal up to fit.
You can view example here.
https://antonkimball.com/2019/07/stiletto/

or here
http://www.markjohnsons.com/?portfolio=veive
or here
https://antonkimball.com/2020/07/potion-2/

or here for package design, the artwork, DECAL actually has the hang tag HOLE draw in, because as you know, in Fusion, decals get fussy around holes in objects sometimes.
https://antonkimball.com/2020/07/chewybigdeliciousgummys/

hope this helps.

@davidcuesta76 
@Phil.E 

[ken]

I have to agree with everyone that finds it frustrating a .png decal will not import at the exact correct size.  I tried importing a silkscreen image from CorelDraw (an exact drawing) onto a panel in Fusion 260 and it took a good part of an hour to scale it and place it and then it had such poor resolution I had to give up.  I needed to do this to verify the screen matched the holes in the sheet metal and it was a useless effort.  How such a basic necessary function could be left out is pretty crazy.  It's for reasons like this that I am going back to Alibre once this design is finished.  Just too many of these loose ends and frustrations when trying to do the simplest things.