Model looks right but doesn't simulate properly

Model looks right but doesn't simulate properly

Anonymous
Not applicable
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Message 1 of 9

Model looks right but doesn't simulate properly

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hello,

 

I am not new to CAD but very new to Autodesk/Fusion360. I wanted to create a 3D model a support mount for a piece of equipment for my research and then noticed that Fusion360 allows FEM. What I want to do is analyze for static force and dynamic force. But when I look at the gravity force it does not appear to be where it should be. Also, the analysis results show an unbalance in an otherwise symmetrical design and static load. Which leads me to believe that I screwed up the model.  Below is a link to the model. I am actively troubleshooting this design. Any suggestions, tips, comments would be helpful. I am sure I broke 23 different rules when creating this model.

 

https://a360.co/2FGpkqO

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Message 2 of 9

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

Yep 🙂

But thanks for having the model. You wouldn't believe how often we have to ask for that!

I think your model is the first one I've come across that has too many components 😉

 

Al these "parts" I have highlighted in the screenshot should be one solid body in one companies. That equally applies to some of the other things in your design.

 

Screen Shot 2019-03-28 at 1.05.38 PM.png


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Message 3 of 9

Anonymous
Not applicable

Thank you for the advice. What is the preferred method to combining those components? The combine tool? If I do then do I delete the individual components from the model?

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Message 4 of 9

TrippyLighting
Consultant
Consultant

Other than completely re-designing and restructuring it properly , yes, that's what I would do.


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Message 5 of 9

John_Holtz
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

Hi @Anonymous 

 

You need to be more specific about what does not look right to you. Images and/or calculations would be helpful. 

 

 

radar support displacement.png

 

I downloaded your model, and the displacement and stress results appear to be as symmetrical as they could be. (Maybe the model in the link is the updated model and does not exhibit the original problem?)

 

There are potential problems with your analysis, such as all of the parts are held together with virtually no strength. For example, the pins (circled) are free to slide out of the holes, and then the arm would be free to slide out of support arm. Although there may be no force causing the pins to slide out, the analysis is still calculating the displacement in Z=force in Z/stiffness in Z. Since the stiffness in Z is 0 in theory because the pin has no constraint and is not bonded to another part, the solution is 0/0. In other words, there is no theoretical solution. The analysis is calculating a solution because it is either adding constraints or springs to the model to keep things from flying apart. When the analysis does that, the results can look unexpected.

 

A better approach is for you to provide the stability that makes sense to the analysis (rather than let the software decide what makes sense). For example, bond the pins to the holes of both arms; this simulates a "light press fit" so that things cannot fly apart. You can leave the contact between the faces of the arms as separation or sliding to allow those faces to move apart but not pass through each other.

 

 

 



John Holtz, P.E.

Global Product Support
Autodesk, Inc.


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Message 6 of 9

Anonymous
Not applicable

John,

 

You are correct. The model was updated after the suggestion from Trippy to combine all the components. Previously, gravity was not symmetrical and I was seeing ~30,000 psi on the right arm and only ~-5,000 psi on the left arm. Both max/min results were near the end of the arm. Not sure why this happened b/c it is symmetrical. The way I created the arm was I created all the components to one arm then copied the bodies over to create another arm. Trippy suggested I had too many components so I combined them like suggested along with each support is its own component now. I was relying on the "contacts" settings to manage what was bonded. I was also concerned about the mesh. If you look the the top left mesh it is different from the top right part and they are the same part. I wonder if this has to do with how I have constructed the model.

 

Since I am new to this program I am playing around with all the different features to see how it works. I agree about constraining the pins to one element to limit the motion.

 

Thank you for your suggestions. It is greatly appreciate.

Capture.JPG

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Message 7 of 9

Anonymous
Not applicable

John,

 

Here is a link to a previous model that shows where gravity is acting. https://a360.co/2FIfyo0

 

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Message 8 of 9

Anonymous
Not applicable

John,

 

Below is a link to a model where gravity is showing in the wrong spot. Can you explain why this is occurring? I am sure it has something to do with the way I created the model. One way I was able to fix the issue was to combine components into larger components. But I was curious how to create this problem from happening again. Thanks.

 

https://a360.co/2OEYQcc

 

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Message 9 of 9

John_Holtz
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

Hi @Anonymous 

 

I think I understand what you are asking now, but correct me if I am wrong. In the model with multiple parts combined, the gravity arrow appears near the "center" of the model. In the original model with the separate parts, the gravity arrow is near the arm on the -Z side of the model, as shown in this image.

Figure 1: Gravity arrow in model with separate bodies.Figure 1: Gravity arrow in model with separate bodies.

If that is your question, then it is nothing to worry about. Gravity is applied to the entire model, so the arrow can be shown anywhere and the results will be the same. According to the help, the arrow is supposed to be shown at the global origin (which is not where it is shown in Figure 1, and it is not near the center of the model). I do not know how it gets located where it is shown in your example. Smiley Sad Like you said, you found a way to have it show differently.

 

The more important issue is whether the results are correct or not. In the above analysis, the displacement results are very close to being symmetric, so the gravity load is applied correctly. (The -Z arm is displacing slightly more because the mesh is too coarse to give a symmetric result.) The stress results are highly sensitive to the mesh size, especially when there is point contact between bodies. It is not unusual to have a point stress at a corner or contact that is much higher it should be. (This is known as a singularity or stress concentration; it is a limitation of the simulation theory.) The displacements are not nearly as sensitive to the mesh size, so they are a good indication of whether the results are symmetric or not.

 

By the way. The multi-body model did not have any constraint, load (other than gravity), or contact setup. I just made everything bonded in order to get quick results.

 

Also, the mesher either does not know that parts are identical or does not care. It creates a mesh on each part independently of the other parts, and there is some "randomness" to where it starts. This is why the mesh is not symmetric or even throughout the model.



John Holtz, P.E.

Global Product Support
Autodesk, Inc.


If not provided, indicate the version of Inventor Nastran you are using.
If the issue is related to a model, attach the model! See What files to provide when the model is needed.
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