cannot edit a model

[mark]

I edit my models manually, sort of freestyle.  I run into problems constantly, like no intersection for body split (happens often when there are tons of intersections).  Generally when I make a change I try things a lot of different ways until I find one that doesn't give an error.  Now I have a design that I can't edit.  I've tried everything.  See the enclosed model.

I can't do anything with the base or anything on it.  If I could delete the base (2.4 mm thick bottom) I could continue but I am stuck now.  Can someone tell me how I can fix it?  I've tried things all day long with no luck.

[etfrench]

Start over using Timeline mode.

[chrisplyler]

Phrased in Fusion 360 terminology, that means turn on Capture Design History.

[TheCADWhisperer]

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@mark wrote:

1. I edit my models manually, sort of freestyle.  I run into problems constantly...

2. I've tried everything. 

3. See the enclosed model.

4.  Can someone tell me how I can fix it?  I've tried things all day long with no luck.

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1. Not surprising to me.  I have found that the fastest modelers with the best quality results use standard, robust, disciplined modeling techniques.

2. No, you haven't tried everything.  Turn on the history and start over. Attach your file here with the completion of each sketch and each feature (don't wait until you have built a house of cards on a foundation of quicksand).

3. Why did you model these faces at a difference in levels of 0.0000197mm?  That doesn't make logical sense?

4. Turn on the history rather than "throwing out the recipe" and wasting hours and days of your time.

So easy!  So logical!

[mark]

It would take weeks to repeat the design.  That's not really an option.

>  Why did you model these faces at a difference in levels of 0.0000197mm? 

I visually align things all the time.  Does that cause a problem?

> you have built a house of cards on a foundation of quicksand

I don't understand.  Are you talking about avoiding f360 bugs?  My design is a design made with legal f360 operations.  

[mark]

> turn on Capture Design History.

How would that help?

[etfrench]

Fusion 360 doesn't like near tangent/coincident conditions which you will get when visually aligning.  It's best to use joints for precision. 

If you had used Capture Design History, there's a good chance someone could debug your file and repair the damage.  As it is, your only option is to rebuild it.  I wouldn't expect it to take more than a couple of hours.

[chrisplyler]

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@mark wrote:

It would take weeks to repeat the design.  That's not really an option.

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Just looking at the model, I estimate two hours to produce it the right way from scratch.

It would take ME an extra hour, because I would have to measure a million dimensions from your version as I went along.

That's a pretty complex part for somebody who has absolutely no idea what they're doing.

[chrisplyler]

"Freestyle" modeling isn't what F360 is all about. Parametric control is the magic sauce that makes it (and other competing programs) attractive. Capturing Design History is one part of that magic. I wouldn't ever model with it turned off, unless I had a very, very good reason to do so.

Granted, I cheated on the interior partitions by just Projecting yours, but this took me twelve minutes so far. That includes taking measurements from your body and rounding them off to the nearest 0.1mm. Did you intend all the decimal places in your design? Or are they just the result of you freestyling/eyeballing it?

Also...is this something that will be 3D printed all in one go? Or machined out of a single billet? It occurs to me that any other manufacturing method is going to require assembly, and therefor your single Body should actually be divided into its component parts (modeled utilizing separate Components).

[mark]

Thanks.  No need to redesign the part.

I've printed this model several times with no problem including the latest version.  It is one piece.  This is the worst problem I've had with F360 refusing to cooperate..

I've tried several times to start a project with history on.  Apparently it isn't compatible with my design technique.  I get errors (something about conflict with the past) and most times the I try to change something from the past the future is all errors.

Maybe F360 isn't the right tool for me.  Does anyone know a cad program that isn't so sensitive?

[etfrench]

When I started using Fusion 360 I used Direct Model mode exclusively, but after a while began starting each project in Timeline mode.  When I hit a problem in the Timeline, I switched the project to Direct Model mode.  It wasn't long before I found I no longer needed to switch.

[mark]

I will try that.  Is it my imagination or did I read that originally F360 didn't have history, just modeling?

FWIW,  I started with openscad so I am familiar with parametrics.  I was originally excited to see that F360 had parametrics.  But when I tried it I couldn't handle it and gave up.  

[chrisplyler]

I'm guessing that the learning curve seems like too much trouble?

You know, we're happy to help folks get up to speed if we can. Care to give a specific example of your weakness and let us attempt to rectify it?

[TheCADWhisperer]

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@mark wrote:

I will try that.  Is it my imagination or did I read that originally F360 didn't have history, just modeling?

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Yes, in the beginning Fusion was direct modeling only.

I have more than 10 yrs experience making perfect geometry using direct modeling tools.

Q1. Do you want to learn robust techniques that transfer to any other modeling software (direct modeling or parametric)?  Yes or no!

[TheCADWhisperer]

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@mark wrote:

  Does anyone know a cad program that isn't so sensitive?

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Riley recommends Creo.

[mark]

> Care to give a specific example of your weakness and let us attempt to rectify it?

My weakness is that I'm creative and want to design while dragging the mouse.  I edit often as I go changing things constantly.  I don't want to plan out a complex model as it will be non-optimal (for me).

[mark]

> Riley recommends Creo.

Thanks but we are a start-up with no financing and $2200 is not affordable right now.

[TheCADWhisperer]

Q1 was a binary yes/no.

Q2. Will all of your real world part production be done ONLY by 3D printing?

[chrisplyler]

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@mark wrote:

> Care to give a specific example of your weakness and let us attempt to rectify it?

My weakness is that I'm creative and want to design while dragging the mouse.  I edit often as I go changing things constantly.  I don't want to plan out a complex model as it will be non-optimal (for me).

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Inasmuch as F360 is the only 3D modeling software I've ever used, and therefor cannot offer any valid opinion on which software might be more suitable, please let me attempt to address that.

First, I'll try to rephrase what you said in a way that I can address within the context of using F360. Your weakness is that you don't know how to use F360 in a way that suits your style. I'm not saying the F360 absolutely can be used the way you want, but I am saying that there might be some common ground that you just don't yet have the understanding to appreciate. Let me explain what I'm talking about.

Using the Capture Design History mode, which gets you the timeline functionality, allows me as much freedom as I want. Sketch elements can be constrained/locked such that they turn black and cannot be dragged with a mouse, instead needing to be edited via a change in dimension or other imposed constraint. But, sketch elements can also be left either partially constrained, or not constrained at all, such that they can be dragged with a mouse. This can work in your favor in certain ways.

Lets imagine a product design where you have some specific requirements, but are otherwise left to use your imagination. Maybe, just for example, an electronics case that has specific minimum interior size/space requirements and fixing/mounting requirements, but the exterior shape is free for you to shape aesthetically as a creative designer.

I might sketch out a preliminary basic sketch, and only constrain/dimension the interior stuff. I might make the exterior out of a free form spline loop that isn't constrained at all. Then I could Extrude the exterior wall up. Now, I won't be able to accidentally mouse drag any of the interior stuff, because it is fully constrained/locked. I can edit it via changes in its dimensions/constraints, but I can't just free form drag any of it. But I can free form mouse drag the sketched exterior spline points around, and the exterior of the extruded shape adjusts automatically to match. After I've messed around and finally settled on an exterior shape, I can go back and edit the sketch and constrain/lock the spline.

In other words, if you at least have some general idea of where you are headed, you can set things up to facilitate your flexibility goals. Now, of course there is a bit of a learning curve. I also got errors in my timeline when I started out. As your understanding of the timeline and parametric functionality gets better, you're able to know how to do things without causing errors, or at least easily fixing the errors if you had to to a major change that couldn't be done without errors.

Lets consider another example...the part you started this thread with. Now to me, those interior partitions appear to be shaped to some specific purpose(s)/requirement(s). I'm assuming you didn't just free form their shapes for aesthetics alone. You could sketch them in a way that constrains certain aspects, and leaves the non-essential bits open to easy editing. This of course does require at least some amount of forethought, but isn't conceptually complicated once you understand the ins and outs of F360.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't HAVE to be all finite and inflexible. You just have to be willing to learn a little bit. If you aren't, that's fine too, I'm not trying to talk down to you. It's just that I don't have any other software suggestions. I feel that running a successful design business, or in fact any business, is going to require a skill set that is analogous to what I've described in F360 above...the ability to know when to be quite flexible and when to be less flexible. Some parts of business operation need to be fully constrained, some parts ought to be partially constrained and some parts need to be more free form. You're going to have to plan some things out if you want to be successful, even if it's against your nature.

I don't know if you will find this post helpful or not. I'm sorry if it isn't. It's all I've got to offer.

[TheCADWhisperer]

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@mark wrote:

> Riley recommends Creo.

Thanks but we are a start-up with no financing and $2200 is not affordable right now.

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The Creo comment was a joke by one of my students.

Creo is probably the opposite of what you would feel comfortable with as a design tool.

But the basic BORN Techniques are applicable to any CAD modeler whether it is a history-based modeler or not.

I have former students that are doing amazing work ranging from organic "art" type toy design to very rigid standard geometries. 

The best quality designers are also the fastest designers.  Many might think those are mutually exclusive conditions, but I have seen it over and over in my 40+ year career.  (Actually, more than just designers, I have seen evidence of this in virtually every type of work that I have observed.)