1:1 scale in drawings is actually 96.3% - even when the printer can handle 1:1

[edwardsc3]

I noticed this problem a while ago, but now it's time to document it fully. Fusion does not print at 1:1 scale when it is set to 1:1; it prints at about 96.3%.

Here's an object that I made to demonstrate the difference. The object is a 250mmx100mm rectangle, with lines at 10mm increments and then 25mm increments. I extruded the segments to alternating heights of 1mm and 2mm (the extrusion is only used so that the drawing lines are clearer in the photo). Here is that drawing compared to an Incra metric ruler which has 0.25mm precision. The dimensions were added with the dimension tool in the drawing mode. 250mm, drawn to scale but not printed to scale

The obvious response to this is to suggest that my printer is shrinking the image, or that the default outer border is having some effect. So, first I removed the border, but there is no change. I should also note that there are no printer options available in Fusion, at least not with my setup.

250mm drawing isn't at 1:1 scale, without the default border

And so the next question is if my printer is scaling it down. I tested this by making a new drawing in a different program - the online version of SmartDraw - using a 1 cm : 1 cm scale and making similar lines. I had to add the lengths in manually rather than with a dimensioning tool, but the onscreen measurements and grid make it easy to correctly apply those. I used fewer lines for the sake of brevity.

SmartDraw correctly sizes to 100%

I made the drawing from the first two images entirely in Fusion this evening, without sending it through any other program, so there is no way that other software could interfere with it. All this was done on the same computer with the same printer. My printer is a Canon MG 5220, but I can also use other printers over the next few days and I expect I would see the same result. The paper size is 8.5"x11" and the printer settings in Fusion were for 8.5"x11". I have seen this problem with the exact same shrinkage amount in drawings that came with supplier parts months ago, so either they also use Fusion and this is a long-standing problem, or it's common across many CAD programs.

Personally, I was expecting to use 1:1 printouts to help form some components I am making. A 1:1 diagram can be printed, cut, and glued onto a part to provide all the markings necessary for the first pass of machining (see the ClickSpring youtube channel, he often uses that shortcut). 

[Anonymous]

hello everyone my name is Edward im very new to fusion ...i build cars ...im trying to figure out if i can use a 3d model to replicate the shape of a car and then print out the shapes i draw to use as templates to cut those shapes out of plywood i have a hp designjet t520 36 inch color printer can this be done ? any instructions would be greatly appreciated the goal is to build a replica 550 porsche spyder from flat sheets of aluminum using a english wheel i built myself

[gtprototype]

Hello Edward,

I use full scale plots for car body lofting, sheet metal patterns, and fabrication reference prints. I'm forced to use other software; unfortunately, Fusion is limited to E size (or A0) plots and to get the scale correct you have to print to pdf first.  I've tried to refine my workflow within Fusion and find something that works but haven't found a satisfactory solution.  Additionally, even if you could plot full scale there is no way to plot a sketch in Fusion.

I don't understand why this hasn't been corrected.  I find it incredibly ironic that AutoDesk, one of the earliest creators of CAD software, can't print at full scale or handle large plots since that has been the hallmark of CAD since the beginning.   Seeing that this has been an ongoing issue for nearly 3 years now, as a stakeholder, I've nearly lost hope of this being fixed in the foreseeable future. 

[Citizen_Insane]

How is this issue still not fixed in 2021? This is completely ridiculous. Everyone expects that a printed drawing from CAD will be 100% scale. Many of us are using the software to generate templates. I just spend half a day redesigning a complex reverse engineered part because I thought it was scaled wrong. Turns out, it was right all along and the print settings in Fusion are completely messed up. There needs to be a warning in the print dialog if you're not able to get things scaled right so that we know we have to print to PDF first.

[gtprototype]

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@Citizen_Insane wrote:

There needs to be a warning in the print dialog if you're not able to get things scaled right so that we know we have to print to PDF first.

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I suggested the same thing back in 2019 --crickets...

Perhaps the reason we don't have a warning is that all stakeholders would be informed of the problem.

One might conclude that years of inaction with this problem has placed Autodesk in a negative light:

• Does it not appear that Autodesk has determined, although not perfect, that the PDF workaround is satisfactory?
• Does it not also appear that Autodesk is okay knowing that some unwary and unsuspecting stakeholders will encounter this pitfall?

As I've said before, I recognize the pace which Fusion is moving forward and I applaud the development team's efforts.  The user community along with the attentiveness and speed at which most things are addressed has become the standard by which I measure all the other CAD/CAM packages that I utilize. 

I love Fusion and use it nearly everyday.  I tried the free version of Fusion and was happy to purchase a commercial license once I got familiar with it.  I've never regretted purchasing Fusion.  I would, and do, recommend Fusion to anyone who will listen.

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[ClintBrown3D]

Hi @gtprototype @Citizen_Insane 

I understand the frustration here. I believe that we have 2 issues.

The first is custom paper sizes, this is something that is on the roadmap and is a feature that I would like to get into the product. A custom sheet will allow for a 1:1 placement of a large component that would ordinarily not fit onto a standard sheet. Incidentally, if you placed a component view that was bigger than the sheet, you are still able to export this to DXF at 1:1.

The second issue is one of scale. Please have a read through the post below, in it, you will see that exporting to PDF & then printing this 1:1 is advised because we have seen wildly different print results depending on the printer used. The scaling problem is not a Fusion side issue, it's down to the print driver, printer calibration and setup.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-support/cannot-print-exact-scale/m-p/9506061#M88209

Give this post a read through, maybe try the test page that @andrew.de.leon shared and let me know how you get on.

[laughingcreek]

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@ClintBrown3D wrote:

...The second issue is one of scale. Please have a read through the post below, in it, you will see that exporting to PDF & then printing this 1:1 is advised because we have seen wildly different print results depending on the printer used. The scaling problem is not a Fusion side issue, it's down to the print driver, printer calibration and setup.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-support/cannot-print-exact-scale/m-p/9506061#M88209

Give this post a read through, maybe try the test page that @andrew.de.leon shared and let me know how you get on.

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@ClintBrown3D - the issue addressed in the thread you referenced is indeed one with printer/driver set up.  The issue being discussed here is an entirely different issue.  AD stated years ago (when direct print functionality was introduced) that it purposely made the decision to scale down a printout to insure it  would fit on the page, instead of printing 1:1.  The decision was made in tandem with decision to not reveal the print dialog box.  They also indicated that since there was a viable work-around by printing to PDF first they were unlikely to address the issue.  

[Anonymous]

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@ClintBrown3D wrote:

I understand the frustration here. 

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Sorry @ClintBrown3D  but you understand NOTHING about this issue!!!

Please take a look at the next two screenshots and compare PLOT options in AutoCAD vs PRINT options in Fusion 360.

Does that make sense for you?

The problem is we don't have an option in Fusion software to select the minimum printing options available in any  CAD software and we are limited to only a few basic options. 

This is intolerable that after years of requesting a change, we still have to go to a 3rd party software like AutoCAD or Adobe PDF to print a 1 to 1 drawing.

[gtprototype]

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@ClintBrown3D wrote:

Hi @gtprototype @Citizen_Insane 

I understand the frustration here. I believe that we have 2 issues.

The first is custom paper sizes 

The second issue is one of scale. The scaling problem is not a Fusion side issue, it's down to the print driver, printer calibration and setup.

Give this post a read through, maybe try the test page

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REDACTED FOR SENSITIVE READERS

Firstly, did you read the OP's findings?  He went to a lot of work to actually rule out his printer.  I did the same when I fell into this booby trap mess; that's how I found this thread. 

If it were the printer, why do my other CAD packages print full scale without a problem?  Think deeply on this one, if it was a problem with the printer wouldn't a PDF also print out of scale?  Yes, I read through the post you suggested and the OP confirmed that he has a printer problem.  Please correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe in this forum thread we have ruled out the printer as the source of error.

I welcome and look forward to the custom paper sizes however, without addressing this issue, how will it magically correct the scaling problem?  Let's think through this together: if I was able to set a custom paper size to, lets say, a standard paper size, wouldn't it still scale wrong, just like it does now with the standard paper sizes?  Please walk me through how setting the paper size to something other than standard will correct the scaling issue.  

Even if you're unwilling to admit it, the scaling problem is in fact a Fusion issue since when it sends the data to the printer it's out of scale, but when the PDF program sends the data it prints correctly.  Two different programs get two different results which one is in error?  The one that doesn't print correctly.

In case you're wondering I printed the PDF drawing from the other forum thread and yes, it printed perfectly to scale.  I wasn't surprised because the three other CAD packages that I use can print to scale both directly and via PDF.   Don't you think that it's reasonable to expect Fusion do the same?

You say that you understand the frustration, perhaps you do, however, your denial of the problem creates even more frustration because, it appears that you're not hearing us. 

[aselleTCCN2]

@ClintBrown3D 

Perhaps you should just delete the print option, because it is almost completely useless? Scaling to non 100% is really something nobody wants when printing from a cad program. print drivers scaling to fit on page has been an enormous blight on correct printing, but it was probably necessary given page size mismatch issues, but that really shouldn't be what you are doing. Users who are trying to print 100% know how to manipulate print drivers, believe me. But you dont' allow it by using a custom settings thing to make your product simpler to implement, or whatever. Maybe it is an Electron limit, who knows. The whole idea that output to pdf really avoids the issue, is you passing the buck, because, how are people going to print these pdfs? They will use the same driver that you say is unreliable. Perhaps you should consider making "Print" be labeled "not to scale, or do not use" if you want to keep it. Also, you don't address the issue that it is now impossible for non-commercial users to print at 100% scale. But I really think you should allow use of the native print driver screen, but I am not the PM, you are. If that's intended, then call it out, and say that's a premium feature. But please address this issue in a wholistic way, please!

[edwardsc3]

@ClintBrown3D,

While I appreciate the response, I think you'll see that your assertions are outside the point or just aren't valid.

Regarding your second point, the original post in this entire thread includes a printout from the free online version of SmartDraw, which does print exactly 1:1 scale. I doubt that Chrome or SmartDraw has a secret sauce in its print drivers to make that work; but even if it does, surely you can license such print drivers from some company that makes them, so you don't need to build them yourself. That's what my company does for the print drivers in our software. Microsoft Word is also very capable of printing 1:1 scale; it includes rulers in the layout views so you can do exactly that.

Regarding your first point, we are not talking about abnormal paper sizes and shapes. The original post was done with the US standard 8.5"x11" letter-size paper. So exactly what paper size do you consider to be the standard and non-custom size? If you try to push this off to something that will be handled when you implement odd paper sizing, you may find that it still scales it incorrectly due to some underlying problem that hasn't been addressed. 

Finally, if printing to PDF is not an option with the non-commercial version of the program, then that's not a solution. 1:1 scale printouts should be considered an absolutely basic functionality of any CAD program. It's hard to justify that the program can correctly scale exports for 3D printing, but not traditional paper printing. And I dearly hope that it scales 3D prints correctly; it will cost the users a lot of time and money if it doesn't. 

[ranbro]

Autodesk has the technology as Autodesk Inventor has no problem printing
1:1.

[ClintBrown3D]

Hey everyone.

I appreciate the enthusiasm and passion for this topic. Having spent a good part of my design career in Automotive fuel systems, I fully understand the need for 1:1 prints for mock-ups. I'm hoping that this reply is going to help the community.

What I have been trying to articulate (unsuccessfully so far), is what is currently possible out-of-the-box today. I want to make sure that the way our printing mechanism works is understood, as this could, you help right now. We don't really explain how scaling works (in the product), I want to do that here. I am not saying we are perfect, or that there is no room for improvement.

Here’s how printing from Fusion 360 desktop client works:

• Fusion 360 prints 1:1 when the paper size of the drawing and the printer match (i.e., A4 Sheet to A4 printer = 1:1)
• Fusion 360 scales down sheets that have a mismatch (i.e., A3 sheet to A4 printer = scaled to fit)
• Printing setup & scaling is based on the OS default settings for your printer. We have seen that some printers are better than others at getting this scaling right.
• Printing from PDF is currently the workflow that gives you more control of the printer settings (I am not saying it is ideal, but it works).

The information above should help you achieve a 1:1 print.

There is a second option available, and that is to print your drawing from Fusion Team. I have done some robust testing and have a workflow for this option too. This gives you have more control over the print settings. Details of the workflow can be found here.

@Anonymous: Hopefully the web workflow will give you more options, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

@edwardsc3 @gtprototype : To address my custom paper size comments. I was just trying to be helpful, if a view of a component is bigger than a sheet, the overlapping parts of the view will not be printable. In this circumstance, a custom sheet would help. Components are sometimes bigger that E or A0.

@aselleTCCN2: let me know if the web workflow works for non-commercial licences.

CC @ranbro @laughingcreek 

[Anonymous]

Here you have my thoughts:

1. I will not consider the web workflow as a solution to this issue (Because Fusion Team is not Fusion 360, is just another software/web alternative). We (users) are not asking for alternative options. We clearly have requested to fix Fusion 360 issue when you need a 1 to 1 print using only Fusion 360 tools, not third-party software/web pages, etc.

2. You should put your efforts into following up on MESSAGE #9 from @TimeraAutodesk  (05-02-2018 02:01 PM). She said: "I have created a defect to track this (internal ref: FDWG-9578) … We will continue to track this issue and will address it as soon as we can. Thanks for your patience”.

So… what is going on with FDWG-9578?

3. Instead of continuously replying that we must go per an alternative workflow, please start prioritizing this one and give us notices of the implementation (3 years and counting to fix this? Seriously?)

I think we do not need to remind again Autodesk experts what we (users) are missing in Fusion 360, but, only to precise the purposes of this thread, here you have a brief summary and why we are asking for it (Following ballooned picture is attached for clarification purposes):

a. Properties (In case you need a 1 to 1 grayscale/colored for revision/clarification purposes)

b. Number of copies (In case you need more than one copy of your 1 to 1)

c. Paper size (In case you want to print/review a draft in letter size before printing the final version of your 1 to 1)

d. Plot area (Almost everyone thinks that the “print window” option is a game-changer when you need a 1 to 1)

e. Plot scale (A word to the wise… when you need to print a 1 to 1)

f. Drawing orientation (A word to the wise … when you need to print a 1 to 1)

g. Preview (Just in case you need to fix something in your 1 to 1)

h. All of them using only Fusion 360 (A last word to the wise… if you want to be productive when printing a 1 to 1)

Missing options in Fusion 360 print command

[gtprototype]

As I've contemplated this problem and read through parts of this thread again, I've realized that this is not just a Full Scale printing problem.  Yes, those of us who needed Full Scale (1:1) drawings have discovered the problem when we fell into this black hole however, the issue is much larger.  It doesn't matter what scale your drawing is, i.e. 1:2, 1:4, 1:8 etc., Fusion 360 simply won't print at the proper scale!!  If you print a 12 inch long part at 1:2 scale it won't be 6 six inches long when you print it, unless you print to PDF first.

[wthomas1974]

I'm sorry sir, but you are quite frankly WRONG on this.

First of all, I can not export as PDF as a hobbyist (but it's become clear lately that we don't matter anyway). I can print to a PDF printer (FileCenter PDF Printer, in my case). But even with the printer defaults set to 100% scale with no "fit" options selected, both of my paper printers and all of my PDF printers still scale the image down... so I'm pretty sure it's your product doing it--one way or another.

The only way I've found to get a reasonably close 1:1 is to open my printed PDF (note, not exported, since I can't do that as a hobbyist) in a PDF viewer and set the output scaling (in the printer options dialog box, hint, hint) to 103%!

Would it really kill your team to add an OS API call to open the printer settings dialog box, like almost every other piece of Windows software that supports printing?

It seems like you've got a lot of 3D programmers and math nerds, would it kill you to get some decent systems programmers on staff? These are basic UX and usability issues. Software as expensive as this shouldn't suffer from these kind of issues that are usually seen in open source, community developed software.

[nordicsaw]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, even though my printer settings in Windows and on the printer itself are set to scale to 100%, the official way to print scale-drawings from Fusion is still just to export as a PDF and then use the standard print dialog in Acrobat?? 

Come on, Autodesk... This is just sad. And frustrating.

[ranbro]

....and I tried that and it still isn't to scale.......

[mustangguy1969]

I believe I have found the area of concern. It is not a printer issue. It's in the drawing workspace when the view is sized. You can resize the view to change the drawing scale while not changing the dimensions of the part. 

Here is a quick video explaining what I found and the work around. 

https://youtu.be/7zpp63tCAz4

[ClintBrown3D]

Hi @mustangguy1969 

Thank you for making the video. I fully understand the frustration. While this example seems to work for your setup,  I can assure you that the view creation and scaling in Fusion is perfectly precise, which is why the PDF and DWG exports all have perfectly scaled views. Changing the view scale is an interesting workaround.

What I would like to say is that we are listening, and that I do want to improve printing in Fusion 360. To everyone who has given us feedback on printing, I want to say a big thank you. All feedback, positive or negative is good, it helps us prioritise which features we build next. I am going to add a project to look at printing improvements to the public roadmap. Please bear with us, there are other projects in the queue before this one, but we will be overhauling the print options in Fusion 360.

While you wait, it might be useful to understand how printing from Fusion 360 desktop client works behind the scenes.

• Fusion 360 prints 1:1 when the paper size of the drawing and the printer match (i.e., A4 Sheet to A4 printer = 1:1) - view scale must also be set to 1:1
• Fusion 360 scales down sheets that have a mismatch (i.e., A3 sheet to A4 printer = scaled to fit)
• Printing setup & scaling is based on the Operating System (Windows or Mac) default settings for your printer. Some printers are better than others at getting this scaling right.

For optimal 1:1 prints, the printer’s default settings need to be set up to allow for 1:1 prints. Some drawing borders have geometry that crosses into the print margins, and in some instances the printer will scale the drawing down to fit the printable area. In this instance the printer setup needs to be changed to accommodate this. Unfortunately setup can vary from one printer or manufacturer to another.

I have documented this, as well as an option to print from Fusion Team here: https://clintbrown.co.uk/2021/04/08/fusion-360-calibrating-11-prints/

Thank you again to everyone who has raised this and for your patience.

[mustangguy1969]

Mr. Brown, I have tried the pdf workaround and it was still out of scale. That is when I decided to purchase a new printer that can print 11x17 paper. 

-Mike