Assemblies of components in Inventor and AutoCAD Electriсal

[ermolov-s]

It must be possible for the component of electrical circuit that contains multiple components such as circuit breaker with auxiliary contacts, assign the assembly of the same parts in Inventor. Now this is not possible. Now is supported the relationship only for details.

Also need to be able to connect an electrical circuit part in Electrical and assembly in Inventor. It is necessary for such parts, comprising protective covers or parts with complex structure. Now this is not possible. Who supported the relationship only for details.

[ermolov-s]

Without the ability to work with assemblies in Inventor associated with circuit elements, can not fully designing electrical cabinets in 3D.

[ccad2509]

thats going to be a hard one

first of all you need to distingish bertween an assembly that has parts in that do not change the phyical size of a item

and an assembly of parts which grows in size

your going to have to map an assembly in acade to a specific model in inventor

or have the abilty to have all the seperate parts appear in inventor and assemble them up in some sort of group fashion

before placing them in a final location

its not there yet  

[ermolov-s]

I think it should look like the following:

1) For a component consisting of several parts, the Inventor creates a subassembly in the main Assembly;
2) In the subassembly from the library of the electrical elements are inserted to the model elements included in the component;
3) After the insertion of all components, subassembly is stored in a separate file, the Inventor returns to the main Assembly;
4) To facilitate the mutual placement of the components when inserted into the subassembly, you can use IPart - parts are automatically installed in the right place. I do as well;
5) Or can be associated with the parts of an electric circuit corresponding sub-assemblies in Inventor;
6) If a component of an electric circuit is changed (added to or removed new elements), the Inventor in the relevant subassemblies are removed or added to these elements - manual or automatic;
7) Inventor should be able to extract the point of connection not only of the details, but from the Assembly.

I think with this approach, there is nothing complicated to implement...

[ermolov-s]

If you do not provide the opportunity to work in Electrical components with assemblies in Inventor, get full product specifications of the cabinet, including additional components such as cabinet body, tires, DIN rails, etc. in Inventor it will be impossible. Add in the specification of cabinet in Electrical such additional components of the assembly in Inventor also impossible, since they are not elements of the electrical circuit. So in the end, none of the programs can not get the full specification of the components of the cabinet. I hope that the opportunity to work with assemblies of electrical components in Inventor will be realized in the future. In this case it will be a full opportunity to work with diagrams in Electrical, and work with the assembly of the cabinet and its specifications - in Inventor.

[vikas.vaishnav]

With AutoCAD Electrical 2016 supporting EMX workflow I believe this use case can be resolved. Or please correct me if my understanding is not correct. 

How to resolve? - In ACADE you can assign a particular INSTALLATION and LOCATION to a particular circuit. And do the same in Inventor. This will help you to view all the parts of ACADE circuit under a specific INSTALLATION, LOCATION node on the Location View tree, simillarly on Inventor side assign the same INSTALLATION and LOCATION at the assembly level so that all the Inventor parts in that assembly will come under the same INSTALLATION, LOCATION node on Location view tree in Inventor. In this way you can view and link different components of a circuit in ACADE to different parts in assembly.

How to have components in Inventor like DINRAIL etc show up in Location View? - You can add ANY component in Inventor and it will show up in Location View (on both ACADE and INVENTOR side) if you assign any of the "Electrical Properties" to the part on the Inventor side. To assign Electrical Properties (like INSTALLATION, LOCATION, CATALOG DATA etc) on Inventor side you need to rt click on part and choose "Electrical Properties" in the menu. Once you put in some values they appear in Location View and eventually help you to make a consolidated list of parts on ACADE and INVENTOR side. 

Please let me know if this clarifies you question? Pardon me if my understanding is incorrect.

Regards,

ACADE Team

[ccad2509]

You’re not going to like the answer

Eplan have already cracked this problem in pro-panel

And it’s a fundamental way Eplan handles Macros (blocks)

I have just created a Schneider harmony push button

It has a button head,A collar

And then you can assemble multiple switch contacts which change the size of the pushbutton assembly

go to this link and download document DIA5ED2121212EN

http://www.schneider-electric.com/download/ww/en/results/0/0/8338004-Harmony-XB4-current/0/

See pages 12&13

I have created

Variant A    1  N/O Contact
Variant B    1  N/C Contact
Variant C    2  N/O Contact
Variant E    2  N/C Contact
Variant F    1  N/O & 1 N/C Contact
Variant G    3  N/C Contact
Variant H    3  N/O Contact
Variant I    2  N/O & 1 N/C Contact

Because Macros are like Dynamic blocks on steroids it’s not 8 different Macros it’s a single Macros which has up to 16 different variations built into the Macro

So when you insert the macros there’s a pull down menu to select the variant you want

And in the parts database you define which macro and what variant is required

I know you’re going to reinvent the wheel but this is how an Ecad company using electrical engineers solved this problem

Using mechanical engineers to solve what is effectively an electrical design issue will result in an unwieldy slow and time consuming solution which in practice nobody will use

The fundamental here is electrical people don’t need the full inventor solution

90% of inventor functionality can be thrown away and few electrical specific functionality needs to be added

What’s the 3d engine running Eplan pro-panel it’s the open source product open cascade

Which should tell you inventor is far to powerful for panel design

Just A User

Not A Consultant

with eyes wide open on what the competation is doing better 

[ermolov-s]

Assigning detail parameters INSTALLATION, LOKATION etc. in the inventor can not add them to the specifications in the electrical. Similarly, since the components of the electrical components represented one whole part in the inventor, it is also impossible to obtain a complete specification of the product. That there is a connection between the programs there, but the full specification can not be obtained in any of the programs.

[ccad2509]

ermolov

you are not wrong its a fundamental issue

Autodesk are trying to make two seperate applications written for different discipline's work together seamlessly

whats required which will not happen as the cost and resources will not be allocated is write a 3d application which is built into acade as standard which can then create an inventor assembly which links into the mechanical model

[ermolov-s]

I think the idea is to use the features of inventor for the design of the product is correct. If you follow the idea of building a digital prototype of the product, which can contain a mix of electric, pneumatic, hydraulic and other parts, the inventor here fit very well. Inventor is a more flexible medium than EPLAN PRO Panel thanks to its versatility. But to ensure effective interaction between Electrical and Inventor still lacks the following:
1) Work with assemblies of components consisting of several parts. I think, not necessarily to create a sub Assembly in Inventor, you can simply specify the individual parts in the Assembly of the electrical component. In the browser Inventor of the electrical components you need to display the full composition of each part of the electrical circuit.
2) you Need to be able to create items with a specific purpose, such as DIN rail and cable channels. The placement of parts on DIN-rails and wiring in the cable channels should be simplified.
3) you Need to implement the ability to create a simplified wiring in the cable channels, as is done in PRO Panel. Creating bundles in inventor takes too much time and resources and for the design of electrical cabinets is not necessary.

[ermolov-s]

Also need to display the tags of the components of the electric circuit on the parts of the Assembly and the drawing and to simplify the construction of the terminal blocks with the possibility of obtaining full spec means Inventor. The parameters of the electrical contacts need to determine for each connection point.

[vikas.vaishnav]

Thanks to you both for your comments and explanations. 

I have few more questions and suggestions:

"Assigning detail parameters INSTALLATION, LOKATION etc. in the inventor can not add them to thespecifications in the electrical. Similarly, since the components of the electrical components represented one whole part in the inventor, it is also impossible to obtain a complete specification of the product. That there is a connection between the programs there, but the full specification can not be obtained in any of theprograms."

What all do you mean by full specifications? Also, here's a solution, let me know if this is not working - 

• You can take any ASSEMBLY on Inventor and group that as a single PART in Inventor.
• In AutoCAD Electrical you can  create the same component and use 'ASSEMBLY CODE' field in catalog database to provide details of accessories. (I am assuming this will associate the complete specifications you are talking about with the Electrical Block.)
• In Location view when you link this Inventor part with AutoCAD electrical component having catalog data, you can view the same catalog data and related sub accessory details with Inventor part with the help of 'ASSEMBLY CODE'. 
• Similarly you can do other way round. If you have full specification for all accessories assigned an'ASSEMBLY CODE' in your catalog database, you can assign the same details on Inventor side. And on linking this with Electrical component all details are visible in AutoCAD Electrical. The details will be captured in BOM as well. 

Let me know your thoughts on that, does it solves your problem. However I agree working with assembly is next thing we should be focusing on.

1) Work with assemblies of components consisting of several parts. I think, not necessarily to create a sub Assembly in Inventor, you can simply specify the individual parts in the Assembly of the electrical component. In the browser Inventor of the electrical components you need to display the full composition of each part of the electrical circuit.

Please elaborate more on this point. I believe this is currently possible in AutoCAD Electrical 2016. All parts of an Assembly (all parts having either pins or having any electrical properties) will show up in Location veiw browser in Inventor. 

2) you Need to be able to create items with a specific purpose, such as DIN rail and cable channels. The placement of parts on DIN-rails and wiring in the cable channels should be simplified.

3) you Need to implement the ability to create a simplified wiring in the cable channels, as is done in PRO Panel. Creating bundles in inventor takes too much time and resources and for the design of electrical cabinets is not necessary.

Agreed, this is a suggestion already under future consideration.

Also need to display the tags of the components of the electric circuit on the parts of the Assembly and the drawing and to simplify the construction of the terminal blocks with the possibility of obtaining full spec means Inventor. The parameters of the electrical contacts need to determine for each connection point.

We display the electrical tags on parts of Inventor's assembly once the components are linked in location view. Could not understand the last part of sentence regaring parameters of electrical contacts. Which parameters are you talking about? 

Regards,

AutoCAD Electrical Team.

[ccad2509]

Okay so I don’t think you’re getting it so let’s try some simple maths

I have a relay its rail mounted and can be expanded

I can add an adder block on top

The adder block can be

1. 2n/o 2n/c contacts adder block
2. 1n/o 1n/c contacts adder block
3. Timer delay adder block

I can also mount another adder block on top if i wanted to

So that breaks down to 1x3x3 = 9 mechanical variations for one relay

How do you propose to generate all those models?

How do you propose to create all those assemblies?

Now i have a circuit breaker that has internal and external additions

You can fit internally

1. 1n/o 1n/c contact adder block
2. 2 no contacts adder block
3. 2n/c contacts adder block

Externally i can fit

1. 1n/o 3n/c contacts adder block
2. 2n/o 2n/c contacts adder block
3. 3n/o 1n/c contacts adder block
4. 4 n/o contacts adder block
5. 1n/o 1n/c adder block
6. 2 n/o adder block
7. 2n/c adder block
8. Timer delay adder block

So now we have 1X3x8 variations =24 different assemblies The way you propose will not work simply because what you’re proposing is creating individual assemblies for each variation 

Which in an average size company with say 5 acades will need to employ somebody just to keep up with the amount of variants you need to create

Congratulations the solution provided is exactly as i predicted long slow and unwieldy

Rule 1 and you must adhere to this rule regardless of what you think may be right

The electrical designer/engineer dictates what goes in the panel not the mechanical guy so all the information originates from Acade not inventor

Inventor needs to process this information from Acade not the other way round Since we know they wont change inventor to accomadate ACADE

That’s why the Eplan solution works and the Autodesk solution does not 

[ermolov-s]

Vikas.vaishnav, on most of Your questions answered in the previous message.

Regarding the display of tags you can see more here.

In addition to details of the electric circuit... In the Assembly of the electrical Cabinet is added many other details that are not parts of the electrical circuit. For example, the Cabinet, mounting accessories etc. These details may not be included in the Electrical specification in ACADE. That is necessary for picking the product to combine the two specifications is one of the Electrical components of the electrical circuit and the other from Inventor - the rest of the details. It's not comfortable. Therefore, it is necessary to obtain the full specification of the product was from one program, such as Inventor. So when you export data from Electrical to Inventor, you must not use Assembly code, need use of catalog data of each part in the Assembly of electrical component separately.

[ermolov-s]

Regarding the parameters of the electrical contacts... Need to specify the direction of joining for each electrical contact of a component, or group of contacts, not the entire part. Inventor is not always correctly determines the direction of joining of the conductor, it is sometimes necessary to fix the direction of the connection on the opposite manually. Can also be electrical components that have more than two different directions wired connections, such as these:

[vikas.vaishnav]

Hi CCad2509, 

Thanks for explaining the use case in detail. I get it now and understand that we do not support this particular case in proposed solution. This will be an enhancement to us, which is supporting Auxillary contacts to act like individual components on Inventor side. We shall keep it under consideration and look for more similar feedback from users. 

Hi ermolov, 

In addition to details of the electric circuit... In the Assembly of the electrical Cabinet is added many other details that are not parts of the electrical circuit. For example, the Cabinet, mounting accessories etc. These details may not be included in the Electrical specification in ACADE. That is necessary for picking the product to combine the two specifications is one of the Electrical components of the electrical circuit and the other from Inventor - the rest of the details. It's not comfortable. Therefore, it is necessary to obtain the full specification of the product was from one program, such as Inventor. So when you export data from Electrical to Inventor, you must not use Assembly code, need use of catalog data of each part in the Assembly of electrical component separately.

Thanks again for explanation. You can have any component from inventor like Cabinet, Mounting accessories, etc exported to ACADE with its full specifications and have them captured in ACADE program. You dont need to draw them explicitly in ACADE to for program to capture their specs.  Also, we are working on a feature to have one program (ACADE) to build this full list of specifications. If you want i can send you invite to join customer council where you can review this work in progress feature and tell us more on how it can be refined. 

Regarding the parameters of the electrical contacts... Need to specify the direction of joining for eachelectrical contact of a component, or group of contacts, not the entire part. Inventor is not always correctlydetermines the direction of joining of the conductor, it is sometimes necessary to fix the direction of the connection on the opposite manually. Can also be electrical components that have more than two differentdirections wired connections, such as these:

Well there is a way in which you can define the direction of wires for terminals in ACADE and have it wired in similar fashion in Inventor. (also vice versa). The way you define wire connection for terminals is through Terminal strip editor in terms of left and right. This is the exact same way it also appears on Inventor side as shown in screenshot below:

The direction defined on TSE is same as what is visible in Inventor. The way it shows up in Inventor is as below. PinL is left side on TSE and PinR is right side on TSE. 

It may not be a perfect solution for all cases but can help in some of the cases to define direction of connection. Let me know if this helps you. 

Regards,

AutoCAD Electrical Team. 

[ermolov-s]

Thank you, Vikas.Vaishnav. Regarding the direction of the wiring, I talked about the tools of the connecting element in Inventor.

Since the direction of conductors is determined for the parts Inventor sometimes incorrectly determines the direction of the conductor. Wires sometimes enter into the details, not the outside. We have to correct manually.

I use the tool to determine the direction of connection terminals. But correctly receive two connection points for terminal in Inventor I can not. More this problem is described here. Topic Starter did not respond to my request.

[ermolov-s]

If electrical schematic component is represented as an Assembly (with ASSEMBLYLIST/ASSEMBLYCODE or by adding elements to the main component), it is not necessary to do an Assembly in Inventor. If the component is an Assembly, in the browser of the electrical components in Inventor to do for such components tree. Nodes of the tree must be included with Assembly items (see the picture below).

When placing these components in Inventor, the user must place each item of such compnent in the Assembly (or specify existing components). But must be have the ability to add the finished Assembly from the library (for example, it is convenient to relay, when may not be in the Assembly of the relay without socket). Also it would be nice to have the option to add components to any components in Inventor (make new or update existing assembly) and then export these data into Electrical. Now the Electromechanical interconnection is still running very unstable. Hopefully in the future this will be fixed. It was expected that some improvements will be in version 2017, but alas...