Bus Bar Wiring Numbers

[dbrblg]

We use a solid bus bar to connect the incoming of our circuit breakers - I've included a picture of the type of thing....

When it comes to putting this in our circuit diagrams, I have a wire layer called bus bar.  What I was hoping I was going to be able to do was to wire in one side of the breaker in cable, use the bus bar across the breakers and out the other side with cable (to reflect the way you might physically wire it). The attached shows the general arrangement with blue being the wires and purple is the busbar.  The blue wire layer is the default wire numbering (%N%S).

The problem is when it comes to numbering.  All the cables are picking up on the same numbering scheme even though the busbar layer has a separate numbering scheme.  Logically ACE is doing what it should by having the same numbering across wires which are connected together but illogically is it changing part of the circuit to a different wire layer and ignoring that particular numbering scheme.

So, my question is, is this the way it's supposed to work?  More importantly what can I do to ensure I can have the two numbering schemes when joined in this way?  What do other people do in this situation?

Thanks

[dbrblg]

We use a solid bus bar to connect the incoming of our circuit breakers - I've included a picture of the type of thing....

When it comes to putting this in our circuit diagrams, I have a wire layer called bus bar.  What I was hoping I was going to be able to do was to wire in one side of the breaker in cable, use the bus bar across the breakers and out the other side with cable (to reflect the way you might physically wire it). The attached shows the general arrangement with blue being the wires and purple is the busbar.  The blue wire layer is the default wire numbering (%N%S).

The problem is when it comes to numbering.  All the cables are picking up on the same numbering scheme even though the busbar layer has a separate numbering scheme.  Logically ACE is doing what it should by having the same numbering across wires which are connected together but illogically is it changing part of the circuit to a different wire layer and ignoring that particular numbering scheme.

So, my question is, is this the way it's supposed to work?  More importantly what can I do to ensure I can have the two numbering schemes when joined in this way?  What do other people do in this situation?

Thanks

[ccad2509]

Don't have access to the acade project i did it on but

what your showing is a direct connection to the breakers where they actually go through a termination try adding a termination to break the flow

this is in another package but will give you the idea

[ccad2509]

Don't have access to the acade project i did it on but

what your showing is a direct connection to the breakers where they actually go through a termination try adding a termination to break the flow

this is in another package but will give you the idea

[TRLitsey]

Hi there,

This may not directly address your question, it's just to how another way of doing it.  All of the components shown are straight out of the box with no modifications.  Note the difference between BUSFEED and BUSBAR.

Good luck

[TRLitsey]

Hi there,

This may not directly address your question, it's just to how another way of doing it.  All of the components shown are straight out of the box with no modifications.  Note the difference between BUSFEED and BUSBAR.

Good luck

[dbrblg]

Thanks for this....

Are busfeed and busbars components or terminals straight from the schematic menu?  When you say these are out of the box with no modifications, are you referring to standard compoents (as I cannot find any similar ).

[dbrblg]

Thanks for this....

Are busfeed and busbars components or terminals straight from the schematic menu?  When you say these are out of the box with no modifications, are you referring to standard compoents (as I cannot find any similar ).

[TRLitsey]

Hi there,

I am using ACE 2014 with JIC library.

diamond HT0_04

power distribution HDB1375

Hope this helps, Good luck

[TRLitsey]

Hi there,

I am using ACE 2014 with JIC library.

diamond HT0_04

power distribution HDB1375

Hope this helps, Good luck

[dbrblg]

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong but I cannot reproduce what you had..... not sure whether it is because I'm using IEC whereas you are using JIC????

Either way it doesn't really matter as I think I understand what's going on.  What I think should be happening is that the busfeed block should be allowing a change of wire numbers as the wire passes through.  This means I can have sequential wires on one side and 'Busbarn' on the other side.  The diamond you selected does not allow a change in number (my IEC busfeed symbol doesn't do this - it keeps the same wire number which is why I think it's not working)  This is how I think it should work....

[dbrblg]

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong but I cannot reproduce what you had..... not sure whether it is because I'm using IEC whereas you are using JIC????

Either way it doesn't really matter as I think I understand what's going on.  What I think should be happening is that the busfeed block should be allowing a change of wire numbers as the wire passes through.  This means I can have sequential wires on one side and 'Busbarn' on the other side.  The diamond you selected does not allow a change in number (my IEC busfeed symbol doesn't do this - it keeps the same wire number which is why I think it's not working)  This is how I think it should work....

[dbrblg]

Also, whilst I think of it.  What is the significance of the shapes of the terminals?  We have circle, square and triangle but do they mean anything is particular?  Are they used for special purposes as laid out in a standard somewhere?

[dbrblg]

Also, whilst I think of it.  What is the significance of the shapes of the terminals?  We have circle, square and triangle but do they mean anything is particular?  Are they used for special purposes as laid out in a standard somewhere?

[TRLitsey]

Hi there,

The graphics of the symbol used is pretty much design preference and/or dealers choice for terminals. It is just a visual aide for the assembly folk and technicians that are trying to follow the schematic.  Sort of like a road map.   I usually put a legend on the front of the schematic that will define in general terms what the symbols in the schematics and diagrams represent.  Such as a round symbol might represent screw terminations and a square symbol might represent a cage clamp or spring termination.  In the example I posted the diamond just represents something special, in that case it would be unseen connections on the bus bar itself, just to show circuit flow. 

I have not peeked at the IEC symbol menu (maybe someone can chime in on that) but with the JIC there are two and sometimes three selections for the same graphic symbol.  The ones with no numbers on the menu symbol will not change the wire number passing through them.  The ones with numbers that are different, say 99 on the left side and 100 on the right side will change the wire number when it passes through.  Same idea with the pin/socket connection.  The number changing or not changing is driven by the naming convention of the symbol itself.  You can read up on that in ACE Help.  Use Symbol or Block Naming Convention as your search.  At least I think that was one of the comments/questions.

By they way, yes there are 'standards' such as the NFPA 79 and it's European equivalent (EN 6024xx I don't remember the full title someone is going to get mad at me) as well as MANY others that try to give general definitions.  But no matter what 'standard' you choose to follow at the end of the day consistence and clarity should be your most important goal.  You could choose some obscure standard, follow it to the letter, but if the finished product can't be understood by your audience it is not really worth a whole lot.

Good luck

[TRLitsey]

Hi there,

The graphics of the symbol used is pretty much design preference and/or dealers choice for terminals. It is just a visual aide for the assembly folk and technicians that are trying to follow the schematic.  Sort of like a road map.   I usually put a legend on the front of the schematic that will define in general terms what the symbols in the schematics and diagrams represent.  Such as a round symbol might represent screw terminations and a square symbol might represent a cage clamp or spring termination.  In the example I posted the diamond just represents something special, in that case it would be unseen connections on the bus bar itself, just to show circuit flow. 

I have not peeked at the IEC symbol menu (maybe someone can chime in on that) but with the JIC there are two and sometimes three selections for the same graphic symbol.  The ones with no numbers on the menu symbol will not change the wire number passing through them.  The ones with numbers that are different, say 99 on the left side and 100 on the right side will change the wire number when it passes through.  Same idea with the pin/socket connection.  The number changing or not changing is driven by the naming convention of the symbol itself.  You can read up on that in ACE Help.  Use Symbol or Block Naming Convention as your search.  At least I think that was one of the comments/questions.

By they way, yes there are 'standards' such as the NFPA 79 and it's European equivalent (EN 6024xx I don't remember the full title someone is going to get mad at me) as well as MANY others that try to give general definitions.  But no matter what 'standard' you choose to follow at the end of the day consistence and clarity should be your most important goal.  You could choose some obscure standard, follow it to the letter, but if the finished product can't be understood by your audience it is not really worth a whole lot.

Good luck

[Icemanau]

My IEC menu is almost identical to what you posted in your screenshot apart from the extra's I've added. It even includes the Power Distribution Blocks.

As for the terminal shape, I use that to indicate function.

Triangle point up -Incoming CT Terminals

Diamond - Incoming VT terminals

Circle - Bus Wiring

Square - Client Connections

Triangle Point Down - Undefined Function

Hex Terminals - Specialty Terminals like Fibre Optic

Then there are the Disconnect and Test types which also need to be shown and have their own special blocks.

Our clients either require a specific brand and that's usually listed in the BOM or use our standard (Weidmuller) type.

Regards Brad

[Icemanau]

My IEC menu is almost identical to what you posted in your screenshot apart from the extra's I've added. It even includes the Power Distribution Blocks.

As for the terminal shape, I use that to indicate function.

Triangle point up -Incoming CT Terminals

Diamond - Incoming VT terminals

Circle - Bus Wiring

Square - Client Connections

Triangle Point Down - Undefined Function

Hex Terminals - Specialty Terminals like Fibre Optic

Then there are the Disconnect and Test types which also need to be shown and have their own special blocks.

Our clients either require a specific brand and that's usually listed in the BOM or use our standard (Weidmuller) type.

Regards Brad