Add multi-point/multi-level terminal block level to terminal number

[jnorris3GZ65]

We use a lot of four point terminal blocks for power distribution (e.g. https://catalog.weidmueller.com/catalog/Start.do?localeId=en&ObjectID=2051500000)

I have the level descriptions set-up as A,B,C,D.  Is it possible to automatically add the level description to the terminal number, so that I can simply associate terminals together and not have to manually assign 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, etc. to each level?

[rhesusminus]

How do you mark this terminal? IMHO this is a single terminal and should be marked with a single number.

[jnorris3GZ65]

In the real world we mark it with a single number and terminal marker. So that makes the most sense, but does ACADE like for different terminal symbols to be associated together with a single number? I was under the impression that giving different symbols the same number caused issue with the TSE.

Also, in the TSE then how can I renumber the terminals to make all levels get the same terminal number? When I renumber them the TSE gives every level a unique number.

[arshdeepsingh404]

Hi @jnorris3GZ65 

You can add default level descriptions though the catalog browser.

If you edit the catalog, and populate the LEVELS and LEVELDESCRIPTION, The terminal will automatically inherit the defined levels and level labels when the catalog is added on the either the symbol or through TSE.

For your second question regards renumbering, you can try the Per Terminal vs Per Level option but there isn't much else to change the renumbering process.

[arshdeepsingh404]

You should be able to give the same terminal number to as many symbols as you want. That is ok with the TSE.
We do the same thing for the similar Phoenix Contact terminals. Place 4 symbols (showing one for each connection on the ladders) for this one terminal and associate them together into one in the TSE.

All of them have the same terminal number / wire number, a common example is +24VDC and 0VDC symbols.

Even though it supports 4 connections, technically this is a single terminal that gets one label in the Field.

[jnorris3GZ65]

When I run the renumbering tool, it always treats each level of the terminal block as a seperate terminal, even when selecting "by level".  If I start at say 1A though then I can renumber each level 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D automatically.

[rhesusminus]

I don't understand why this must be such a hassle to get it to work. In Autodesk's view, every terminal has 2 connection points. "There is no such thing as a terminal with 3, 4, or more connection points". The world of terminals has evolved since 1990!

This is how easy I do this with competing software that costs less than AcadE. I download the data for the Weidmuller terminal from the data portal, and then I insert them. I can insert them with different symbols like -X1:1,2 or 4, or I can split it into 4 separate single-connection point terminals like number 3 (that can be split to separate pages in the project). They will OFCOURSE number as expected, AND you can give each of the holes in the terminal a separate character/number.
And.. The orange dotted line makes the software automatically suggest that it should be jumpered. The blue lines are internal connections inside the terminal. And this is the "TSE":

This is NOT rocket science.

And this is one of many reasons to why I abandoned AcadE.

[jnorris3GZ65]

IS that EPLAN?

I wish EPLAN was cheaper than ACADE, but last time I had it quoted it was about 3x as much.

[rhesusminus]

It is, and if you only need 2D schematics/panel layout it is the SAME as AcadE. Ask for Electric P8 Compact+ license.

[jnorris3GZ65]

I've run into another quirk of terminal blocks... In the past we always used the terminal with wire number symbol, but we want to start using the terminal number symbol so that our drawings accurately match the numbering we print for our terminal markers.  Using the wire number symbol I never really had issues with a "Defined terminal wiring constraints have been exceeded" warning in the TSE.

Now, using the terminal number symbol (and maybe it was an issue before I just didn't notice it) it seems to count every branching wire after a terminal symbol as a connection.  So if I draw a wire from the (+) output a PSU symbol to a terminal symbol, and asign it to the connection 1A, then come out of that symbol with a wire and branch to three source arrows, it counts that as three connections to one terminal. 

That means the TSE is useless to me until I'm completely done with my schematics and make sure I have included all of the terminal symbols at the branch destinations.  If I open the strip in the TSE before hand, it adds the extra terminals and gets everything out of whack.  Maybe that is the intended workflow, but I am used to jumping into the TSE as I go.

EDIT:  This also means that I know have to double up terminal block connections in some places where I otherwise would have skipped one.  If I have a cable coming in to the panel and landing on a TB for the cable, and then have one of those terminals wired to a 24V distribution bus I have to include both terminal symbols for AutoCad to consider everything good and proper.

[jnorris3GZ65]

Honestly,

This is definitely driving me towards recommending we switch to EPLAN or SkyCAD in March when our main subscriptions update; because this is crazy that it can't even just default assign the same terminal number to every associated level.  We have a new terminal block label printer that makes it harder to print whole wire numbers; but no problem right, we will just start printing terminal numbers instead... except now there is no way to know what terminal number should be what wire # from the drawings.  Its just... such a little thing that ends up having a huge impact on the professionalism of our final drawings.

[Niklas_BalkHJBPA]

Hi Arshdeep,

I see that you said you can place 4 terminals and associate them with the same name. When I try to do this, it gives me errors. For example, in the screenshot below, you can see that I have two terminals on the same strip with the same number. However, when I associate them together, it treats it like two separate levels on the terminal. If there is only one level available and I try to associate them, it throws a dialog box saying Error: Too many associated terminals for these block properties. My goal is to be able to represent one level of one terminal on multiple sheets in a concise and practical way. Please let me know if you have any tips or can direct me to a good resource because so far I haven't found much. Thanks!

[arshdeepsingh404]

Hello @Niklas_BalkHJBPA 

How many level have you assigned to the terminals under Block Properties?

The workaround I was suggesting was to add multiple levels (2 in your example) and then associate them together to make them one terminal for counts.

You will see an error for association if no more free levels are left to associate.

[Niklas_BalkHJBPA]

Arshdeep,

Thank you for the reply. This is probably the route we will end up doing as it allows for the schematics to be intelligently labeled which makes it easier for our production team. Of course, it is not entirely accurate on the backend because the software sees it as a 4-level terminal when in reality it is a 2-level. Thus, custom catalog entries will have to be created to keep BOM as accurate as possible.

[arshdeepsingh404]

Yes, this is sort of workaround which will make the front end look good. It's not fully accurate at the backend where we are adding more levels to a terminal than there actually are.

But it shouldn't affect your BOM quantities:

If you place 4 terminal icon with catalog data on each, BOM will show QTY:4

If you associate all of those 4 terminals together, BOM will show QTY:1

This way you can kind of control and reduce the number of actual terminals reported in BOM and footprint display while the inserted terminals icons on the schematics count is more.

[ccad2509]

Hey Trond

Im surposed to be the one that bashes ACADE for being so 19th century technology

you know being a contrator and nobody asking for design in ACADE and now people have realised that ETAP is far better and cheaper  than ACADE  with over 200 salemens beating the electical engineering bushes its only a matter of time before ACADE will go the same way as the dinosaurs

the market will  split will be

high end EPLAN

Low cost ETAP

people that  dont want to pay fro anything SKycad and librecad and for 3d Freecad

legacy and dying businesses  ACADE

[Niklas_BalkHJBPA]

Arshdeep,

My apologies for hitting you up again so much later. My company primarily uses 3-tiered terminals and 8-tiered marshaling blocks. Here's an example of how a 3-tier terminal might be used with the strategy we are discussing: 

 I understand that using any wire layer ending with "JUMPER" is ignored by TSE which is great (for example, the wires between terminals in the image above are all on a layer called "TERMINAL_JUMPER" and do not register on TSE).

In the images above, you can see the graphical and tabular terminal strip generations. On the left, the wire numbers are glitching out and the center says "3U1" even though that is only one of the six wire connection points. On the right, this massive table represents just two individual terminals. My question is, when you open the TSE and want to generate tabular or graphical terminal strip representations, do you have any tips to do this in a better way? Thanks so much.

Regards,

Niklas Balk

[rhesusminus]

I know of at least ONE better way (at the same price as AcadE):

[ccad2509]

only one

come on we both know that virtually all acade compititors solved this issue years ago

[arshdeepsingh404]

Hello Niklas,

No worries, I am always happy to help. I think all you need to do is modify the footprint to show the wire number and terminals numbers correctly.

If you select the terminal footprint, you will see that the wire number and terminal attributes are already populated.

Wire numbers attributes are positioned to overlap with next terminal and only one terminal number attribute is visible.

You can modify the footprint dwg to reposition the attributes on what looks best for you. Set the attribute visibility based on what you want to display.

Eventually you will end up creating custom drawings based on catalog but I think for now you are just using the wd_default_multiterminal.dwg

Usually located under: C:\Users\Public\Documents\Autodesk\Acade 20xx\Libs\panel

Make sure to either use swap/update block (AESWAPBLOCK) or delete the terminal strip layout, purge the drawing, and then insert the strip again, just to make sure that all the changes you made to footprint block are being reflected properly.

Example below:

Attributes used: (this is just for position references, don't delete the other attributes like P_TAGSTRIP)

Example circuit used:

Hopefully this helps, Let me know if you have any further questions!

Cheers!