Implement Color Management in 3ds Max - support for ICC, LUTs etc.

[pokoy]

Max is the only 3d application that isn't color managed, it actually is surpassed by simple free image viewers when it comes to displaying colors.

Whether we work for print, game or video/film/vfx, in 99% of our work the final result is a pixel or a textured model, viewed or displayed on a variety of devices. Not being able to use color profiles and LUTs in order to judge colors early in the work process is absolutely unacceptable in the year 2017.

Color profiles - we need per-scene color profile settings that will globally apply for color swatches, maps (procedurals+bitmaps), viewers (Viewports, Unwrap Editor, Bitmap Viewer, Preview etc.), the VFB and file render output, with options to override global profile for individual bitmaps for maximum flexibility.

LUTs - we need a way to apply LUTs to bitmaps (single and sequences), image viewers, the Preview, the VFB and file render output. Also, we need a way to quickly manage LUTs from different places on the disk by creating LUT libraries, quick LUT preview/compare in the VFB without re-rendering.

In order to be actually usable, Max should support for ALL industry standard files, not just Autodesk's CM solutions. Also, color profiles and LUTs used in a Max file should be included in the file for proper interop.

[Anonymous]

I voted for this, however I think the issue remains that Windows does not handle color very well.

With the increasing popularity of wider gamut displays, perhaps we should concentrate our efforts into persuading Microsoft to implement system-wide color management.

[artemon3d]

A huge percentage of the 3ds Max market is using V-Ray and Arnold to do their output renders, both of which fully support OCIO and LUT. Color management is important for output and monitor calibration, not for modeling, so I don't know what everyone here is complaining about. When someone says, "Blender has CM, but not 3ds Max", what they are really saying is, "Blender's built-in Cycles rendering engine has gotten color management."  3ds Max doesn't need it, because most rendering engines that is uses (non-built in) have ACES color management.

[hristo.velev]

There is more to it - renderers are using texture nodes from Max, it's good when the viewport is also color managed so it matches the renderers, etc

[Anonymous]

Yes there's more to it. Right now there is no interface at all to control the color management in Arnold from 3ds Max.

And the most important one being a view transform, so that you can see the renders how they actually look like, instead of just looking at raw data like it is now.

[RGhost77]

It's finally in roadmap http://makeanything.autodesk.com/3DSMAX/public-roadmap-25B1-201DB.html#rendering-future

but how long it takes to implement....

[ismlan]

Jjajaja So the only thing I could find on that page was that one sentence about "Implementing color managment by aligning with the OpenColorIO initiative." I wouldn't hold my breath to see this done before 2050 XD But who knows, maybe people are sitting at home because of COVID and actually get time to implement this.

[pokoy]

@artemon3d It's way more than that. First thing is that 3rd parties can't account for shortcomings in Max so they all have to find workarounds and everyone is forced to reinvent the wheel.

Also, as others have stated, ideally you'd want to see the same color everywhere - input, viewport, render, output.

Yes, some renderers have it implemented in their workflow but that only accounts for rendering and output, not the viewport etc. Plus, not everyone is using Vray...

My hope is that this is being done right. Knowing Max I have my doubts as to whether this will be a global CM across the whole app... which imo is still the thing to aim for.

It looks like right now the print folks are out of luck as their CM engine is based on ICC. For this, Max needs to implement Windows/host color management and be display-aware which it will probably not be with 'only' OCIO.

Honestly, this is something that should've been added to Max 10 years ago.

[artemon3d]

@pokoy  Implementing complex CM in 3DS Max, 10 years ago, would have been very premature in the whole 3D software evolution. I am sure that Autodesk had more important things on their minds, like modeling and rendering technologies. I understand that, as professionals, we condemn the slow pace of implementation, however, look at it from the end user's point of view. I don't think that movie-goers were complaining that the wooden floor in Toy Story was "too saturated", or that the reflections in Iron Man's armor were "too diffused". We were enamored by the technologies of those time-periods. Evolving to a state where we blur the lines between virtual and reality will take time, but look at the amazing progress we've made already. We are substituting live actors for virtual ones, and nobody in the theater is the wiser. The last thing we need to worry about is whether a lemon looks "too yellow." Most people are not as adept or aware as creative specialist geeks and nerds. I find it funny that, as amazing as 3DS Max is, there are some who still search for criticism. Even to this day, Blender, C4D, and Houdini are all still trying to catch up. They are marketing "cutting-edge functionality" that Max already had built-in 10 years ago. Let's give Autodesk a little more credit. I don't think that their R&D people are as oblivious as some would have us believe. Prioritizing is still essential in any business.

[pokoy]

@artemon3d I got this e-mail with your answer copied in but don't see it posted here... Anyway your post was:

@pokoy  Implementing CM in 3DS Max, 10 years ago, would have been very premature in the whole 3D software evolution. I am sure that Autodesk had more important things on their minds, like modeling and rendering technologies. I understand that, as professionals, we condemn the slow pace of implementation, however, look at it from the end user's point of view. I don't think that movie-goers were complaining that the wooden floor in Toy Story was "too orange", or that Iron Man's armor had "too much blue reflection". We were enamored by the technologies of those time-periods. Evolving to a state where we blur the lines between virtual and reality will take time, but look at the amazing progress we've made already. We are substituting live actors for virtual ones, and nobody in the theater is the wiser. The last thing we need to worry about is whether a lemon looks "too yellow." Most people are not as adept or aware as those with the creative eye are. I find it funny that as amazing as 3DS Max is, there are some who still search for criticism. Even to this day, Blender, C4D, and Houdini are all still trying to catch up. They are marketing "cutting-edge functionality" that Max already had built-in 10 years ago. Let's give Autodesk a little more credit. I don't think that their R&D people are as oblivious as some would have us believe. Prioritizing is still essential in any business.

---

10 years ago...  please note that I posted this idea in Jan 2017... Also, a few years ago, there was no ACES, no OCIO but ICC was around for a lot longer than that. And it was needed back then as much as today.

Of course we all have a different point of view here but if you ever worked with a log plate without any LUT you'd absolutely hate to work without any input or viewport LUT (you're literally forced to guess if you matched the lighting, shadow and colors), or general CM for file input and output. If you ever worked for print and needed colors to be somewhat consistent it's another strong case for CM.

See it that way - it's one of the weak points of 3ds max right now because it can't be used in certain environments.

I don't see how asking for a vital feature in image creation could be misunderstood as searching for criticism. If you work with any audio software you certainly would want the EQ to produce accurate results... Working with colors is no different and it requires the software to hold up to certain standards and give you control in order to produce and author your content the way it's expected in the industry.

[artemon3d]

@pokoy I understand that what you are looking for is important. I'm just saying that it probably isn't on Autodesk's list of high priorities right now, that's all. I see specialists in all areas of production griping on forums that "their" particular feature is long awaited. Like anything, we get spoiled the more complex software gets. What you say is "vital" is really just a longing to make your job easier... I get that. In the end, it just might be that Autdesk's standards are a bit lower that yours. I hope you get what you are looking for soon. We'd all like to see Max stay on the leading edge, especially now that there is much competition on it's heals.

[revoconner]

Can't believe we are in 2021.2 but still no way to work with ACEScg in Arnold in max, but it is so simple to do in Maya. In fact I am trying to move to maya just for rendering after using Max for 7 years. 

[mikinik]

revoconner, agree with you. It all looks like developers are laughing at us. Having implemented arnold render view, they did not implemented any tone mapping in it. Moreover, exposure from physical camera does not work in it. How to work with it? I'm sad. I'm waiting tone mapping from appearance of Arnold in 3ds max and then such a disappointment...

[BenediZ]

+ support for AdobeRGB

Why: because all camera raw files are captured in that color profile which has the widest gamut and brilliant colors.

sRGB has the smallest gamut, it was only developed for the internet once.

ACES is good but is not compatible with AdobeRGB, and also Photoshop has no ACES workflow.

So when importing camera files they were either displayed completely wrong or down-graded and loose all their quality.

[Anonymous]

@BenediZ Lots of fact errors in your post mate.

Camera raw files are in the camera sensor native color space. That's the whole point of raw. Every camera has it's own color space. It's when you shoot jpg in your camera you can set AdobeRGB or sRGB, but raw is totally different.

Since ACES encompasses all color spaces it's pretty much compatible with everything. ACEScg is larger than AdobeRGB so they are compatible as well.

I don't know how old version of Photoshop you are running, but my Photoshop has ACES and ACEScg working spaces and they've been there for a while now.

Most camera raw files are probably larger than ACEScg but smaller than ACES.

[BenediZ]

@Anonymous  Thanks, so if you say it's implemented, I would be happy to hear about your workflow to import an AdobeRGB Tiff with 8 or 16bit into 3dsMax (or Maya). Thanks in advance

From my point of view there is no predefined choice for AdobeRGB, but it's there for sRGB, ACES and Raw (linear). 

So I'm expecting to have AdobeRGB as well listed there because it's very common and has way more quality.

(Just to reinforce the meaning : Even if you set sRGB on 16bit depth you don't get back the huge color range of an 8bit AdobeRGB. It's only giving more increments of the existing colors).

So why push users to sRGB and leave off AdobeRGB in the quick selection?

And of course a raw is bigger and different than AdobeRGB, but it's the largest possible 8bit-format (or 16bit) from a raw that gives brilliant results and the standard output.

And I saw there is meanwhile ACES in Photoshop, but still not with 32bit (I was looking a year ago)

https://feedback.photoshop.com/conversations/photoshop/photoshop-ocio-and-aces-support-for-32bit-images/5f8f6057c17a06631eb730ea

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop/photoshop-aces-ocio-colormanagement/td-p/10694082?page=1

[pokoy]

Yes, ACES and ICC are two very different things.

ACES doesn't care about your input/output devices, it 'just' transforms colors between different spaces for display within an application. This one is in the making, but the last info I got - some 6 months ago - was that while it is on the roadmap, not much work, if any, has happened on the implementation in 3dsmax.

ICC on the other hand is part of a color managed workflow and does explicitly care about how files are displayed on your devices. Not having ICC implemented will leave out the print folks entirely. Without ICC, 3ds max will do the ACES color transforms but will NOT care about displaying colors AND respect your calibrated display device within a color managed environment. But - that's the critical part since the end goal is to be able to work with colors in a reliable way at all times, isn't it?

@BenediZ AdobeRGB and RAW... well, no. AdobeRGB is just a (wide gamut) ICC profile, embedded in the file so your application knows how to display it, and the CM engine taking care of correctly transforming colors to ensure color proof display on your end device. Implementing ICC will mean you can display images within AdobeRGB but also any other ICC profile. It doesn't change your image data (!). If your display isn't calibrated, you are not using ICC the way it was meant to be.

As far as I know, Autodesk does not plan to include ICC, only ACES so far. In my opinion, this is not enough. Autodesk has failed to implement color management at an earlier stage and/or engage in user discussions to learn about the needs, and - as of now now - it looks like they are taking the least-effort route with OpenColor IO. Thus, we will NOT be able to view images with ICC profiles afaik, and those who need to stay within a color managed workflow will see no change to how Max worked in the last 25+ years.

Still, there's hope - OpenColor IO v2 may implement ICC. So if Max gets OC IO v2 we may see ICC support, still the question is - when and how complete will this be...?

I wish roadmap feature announcements would be accompanied by an open discussion, surveys, feedback, actual talking to the user base. It looks like Autodesk only cares about getting the 'LOOK HERE, IT'LL BE AWESOME' part out to the crowd, but not really having a good plan on what's really needed and why. They are, again, serving the investors and the 'fame' while not being really concerned with the actual feature functionality and user base needs.

[BenediZ]

@pokoymany thanks. I have to mention, that I am since 20 years involved in print and even offset CMYK workflows, from advertising to art book printing.

I have helped to build ICC workflows on monitors and printers for many years. So my knowledge could be not perfect for CGI, but I know about a bit more than it seems...

Of course the aim should be to have same view display on all devices and across all software, just as you say.

BUT when I suggest to start improvements also with implementing AdobeRGB (which is a small task), this is just an "cheap" additional step, which will make possible to get a much better color range with no costs, neither of performance nor having to change anything else nor having to wait 10 years until Autodesk wakes up.

I had this discussion as well with FOUNDRY (Mari and Nuke) with long emails, charts and file examples and in the end, they absolutely agreed to the need and told, they have put on the road map to implement it.

So if their experts say this, you can believe that this is not nonsense.

So I am not denying anything about what was said before, but the current standard workflow involves the worst possible color profile on the planet, called sRGB, a reminder from the beginnings of the internet - while you get even as a hobbyist from any camera a rich AdobeRGB for free.

And until the day comes where Autodesk enables true display colors across all devices you can at least tweak your output files much better, if the basic color space is wide and not small. And again at no costs!

[pokoy]

@BenediZ But... what 3ds max does now is simply use the system setting for display, without managing colors at all - you are seeing what your display is capable of and calibrated towards. If you didn't calibrate it's Win system preset which is sRGB.

Since you seem to know what CM is about - regardless of image data, an embedded ICC profile will tell the application to display in a certain color space. Since Max doesn't respect embedded profiles, it'll display two identical image files with different profiles - let's say one with sRGB embedded, another one with AdobeRGB - the same way, falling back to whatever the CM system setting is for both images.

In the same way, Max doesn't cripple your file, what you see on your display is what your CM system setting is. If it's a wide gamut calibration, you'll see the wide gamut data color space. It only doesn't care what your input space color is, and it doesn't embed anything.

And that's where the CM gap is obvious - we can't define our working color space and work reliably with colors being 100% sure about what we do, or how input images have to be interpreted or converted, and what profiles to embed on output to make sure they look the same in Max and PS/AE etc...

Also, make no mistake, support for AdobeRGB would be nothing less than full support for ICC. It's more the other way around, you have to support ICC in order to support AdobeRGB.

Our best bet is that ICC support will be fully integrated into OC I/O. Still, I expect the Max dev team to fully embrace CM in Max and make it available to any input and output files, color swatches, viewports, material previews etc.

[BenediZ]

@pokoy  (and @Anonymous  who still owes me an answer ;))

In a nutshell: ICC is important - yes, out of question. But you can of course load an sRGB, while there is currently absolutely no way to load an AdobeRGB.

I have tested: If I convert AdobeRGB in Photoshop to ACEScg the colors look immediately washed out and loose brilliance.

And also I can definitely not load an AdobeRGB just as an sRGB: it looks completely wrong.  Please try yourself and you will see.

ICC workflow is one important step further.  But halfway, currently there is even no way to bring professional footage into Max or Maya, no matter what kind of workflow starts after that.

You have the choice between converting "down" to sRGB (which can be displayed) or getting changed colors.

[pokoy]

So, it appears that OpenColor I/O v2, which is now in Arnold 6.2.0.0, integrates ICC to 'some extent':

https://opencolorio.readthedocs.io/en/latest/upgrading_v2/how_to.html#support-for-icc-monitor-profil...

Since OCIO v2 is probably the one to be integrated into Max, it's going to be interesting how exactly specifying ICC displays will be solved. If it happens only on image input/output and frame buffers it will not be full-scale ICC support, that means that color swatches, materials, viewports will probably not benefit from ICC in OCIO v2, and it probably won't work across mutiple displays - I'm only speculating, of course, but I'd rather see a proper OS color management integration and full support for every color/pixel within Max. But let's see...