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Consistent tools, workflow and experience

Consistent tools, workflow and experience

You hear it all the time, yet nobody takes a stance - max lacks consistency big time. Whenever I compare max to some other software, it's always the biggest difference. There seem to be no standards, design manuals or even cooperation whatsoever, implementation details of similar features are different across the application, you sometimes get the feeling they are parts of different softwares in one package, sticked together in a haste. And it's a pity.

The interface is not consistent, the behavior is not consistent and I find myself doing things expecting some behavior that is common elsewhere only to find out 100th time it doesn't work and thinking 'oh, right, I have to do it different way here, silly me' - and this is after almost two decades with max.

There's Place Pivot Surface in the default quadmenu, when I first saw it, I was happy, now I don't use it because it doesn't work with the regular Edit Working Pivot mode which seems to use a different working pivot - hell if I know, instead of finding out, I stopped using it.

There's point-to-point edge selection in the UVW Unwrap modifier which works COMPLETELY different than the so-called point-to-point selection in Editable Poly (by the way I hate that one, it's awkward and weird and whenever I try figuring how it works - and that it works better if I deselect everything first so as not to trigger ring selection - which beats the purpose completely, I end up selecting by clicking instead).

Some spinners are sticky and keep their last input value (editable poly, mostly), some reset to default value each and every time (editable spline mostly, for repeated operations you have to put it in each time).

 

There are also Sticky Keys that were excitedly anticipated before max 2008, yet nobody uses them now as they are limited to a few hard-coded editable poly functions and you cannot use them anywhere else - and nothing changed since they were added, they are mostly forgotten.

There is the super useful Tangent Handle sub-object mode that allows mulitple tangent manipulation in Patches which is not in Shape objects.

When you click subobject icons holding modifier keys in editable poly, you get converted selection, which doesn't work anywhere else (say editable spline, often find myself trying it there).

Editable spline has divide for segments, which would be very useful if they could be slid, pinched etc. in the same way that edge loops can be in Editable Poly.

There's Folder History in some dialogs (Open Script) and not in others that are otherwise almost the same (Run Script).

Window/crossing depending on selection direction turned on? Well, it only works in the viewport, doesn't work in unwarp, when selecting nodes in MCG or basically anywhere else. I know it is that way, yet almost every single time I find myself doing it out of habit, before it dawns on me that it won't work that way...

Some operations have progressbar, most of them don't, some display their own, some use the prompt bar for that, others output text there instead.

Units of axes in the graph editor are system units, not display units, happened with a few modifiers in the past, mostly fixed, but still lurking in unexpected places.

After all the updates to spinners, MCG still comes with spinners that are not draggable and don't zero out on right-click.

All the code input windows are different, Script editor will use syntax highlighting and colors, newScript() window will only respect the background color and nothing else, MAXScript Listener comes with its own set of colors and shortcuts, and then there are Script controllers with their own pure-text fields.

Some operations allow you to navigate the viewport in the process, for some of them you have to stop the tool first, otherwise the tool effect will disappear - you will only find which are those when you try for example rotating viewport.

Many of the ribbon tools are only one-way, i.e. when you set the value elsewhere, it won't change in ribbon, while in the rest of the interface it shows as soon you change it.

Changing the material is undoable, changing wirecolor not.

Z to zoom extents? Works in viewport and MCG, doesn't work in Slate Material Editor (Alt+Ctrl+Z? WTF?) nor in Particle View - and Trackview? Better forget that one for good...

Want to change Render Sample Size of material preview in Slate? Oh, you have to switch to Compact material editor first and in ITS options change that, then switch back, same with other settings.

Global Search in viewport is different in looks and behavior department than the search in MCG (in Slate and Particle View, pressing X switches to main max window instead to make matters even more complex).

Some of the menubars (Particle View, Script Editor etc.) respect windows style, some are completely different (main menubar still has the gradient background as a remnant of the past while the rest of the UI is flat).

There are even some gradient style aqua buttons still scattered across parts of UI that were new few versions back and untouched since like the Template Manager, and even all-white (despite dark UI) gradient style 'Customize Ribbon' dialog (the Communication center and QAT don't fit rest of the UI either).

 

MCG, Particle View and Slate Editor use the same SDK for nodes yet they use different shortcuts, look different and behave slightly different, when people complain about something, it gets changed in one area and remains unchanged in the others.

There are multiple slightly different floating tear-off UI parts, ribbon parts show the handles only on hower, they're almost black and come with an additional button to 'dock it back', extended menus come with a windows-themed titlebar with a cross only.

Even if you have Caddies disabled, you get manipulator caddies when Select and Manipulate mode is active.

There's only one of each for Save Active Perspective/Ortho View in both the viewport menu and menubar Views menu, yet you can save multiple configurations in the Viewport Layout Tabs... it's a slightly different functionality yet still the only way to save multiple.

There are many functions that only work under the right circumstances that are hard to guess if you don't already know them. Very little in max is actually predictable. I could go on but I'm already tired just from thinking about it.

 

These are all things people were complaining about before, nothing new, nothing fixed either. And everything goes against the notion of max offering a consistent and predictable experience - changing those things one by one will help a bit but won't change much unless it's applied across the application and for every new or changed feature.

27 Comments
RGhost77
Advisor

Man, you make me cry Smiley Sad Smiley Sad +100500

Swordslayer
Advisor
A few more examples:

You can edit more instances at the same with command panel tools, yet many of the ribbon tools and loop tools won't work, without error message, they won't do anything as they are hardcoded to work only when one object is selected.

You can select all borders in Editable poly with Ctrl+A, in Edit poly it selects all edges so you have to select by dragging instead.

Oh and also worth mentioning how the edit poly maxscript interface is nothing like the polyop struct used for editable poly, good luck writing scripts that support both.

MAXScript is a good example by itself, it's mostly expression based so you can rely on getting something meaningful returned, yet there are also loads of methods that return OK (basically void) instead and use a by-reference parameter to 'return' the value..

When the simpleSpline was exposed as MAXSCript scripted plugin because it was used for MCG spline primitives, no MAXScript methods were added at all, no documentation in MAXScript reference and I had to reverse-engineer the autogenerated MCG output to find out how to use it, and use .NET methods to manipulate the bezierShape.

And on the other hand, MCG primitives still don't support the max way of setting parameters like width, length, height etc. by dragging in the viewport - not in an automatic manner and not possible to override the default click-to-place-only create handler either.

And while MCG supports arbitrary tools with UI, it doesn't do it in a modern way, instead it uses the MAXScript utility output, hidden under utilities > MAXScript > , which used to be popular before max 4.2 when floating dialogs were introduced.
RGhost77
Advisor

Another example - Selections Sets, you can't use sets created in Editable Poly in Skin modifier (and others) on top of this object.

Swordslayer
Advisor

Oh and of course also the wonderfully named WS73099cc142f487553098682e12ac2fc2bc7-722e variable name (I wish I was joking), compared to nodeTM for a similar variable (they might even be the same, or maybe not, there's just WS73099cc142f487553098682e12ac2fc2bc7-722e.translation = gridPoint used as an example in maxscript reference).

Ehsan.Sarahian
Advocate

CAT and Biped are another exam

Swordslayer
Advisor

Circle and other round shapes are created with bezier handles and you can control the spline precision by setting the interpolation. Compare that to Helix which creates a fixed number of corner points instead (which is also why I've made my own Bezier Helix).

 

Another good example is the Booleans update, which failed to communicate both to new and old users that unlike the old Booleans, the operands don't disappear from scene and are only hidden (I like it, but at first it was sort of a surprise when the objects appeared back), and the option to Extract operand was taken away (in connection to this) which means that when you move, rotate or otherwise transform the boolean object, you either have to do that with all the original objects at the same time as well or you're out of luck - and when you merge it to another scene... well, that's a pitty, you should have merged the original objects, too, although it's impossible to tell from the merge dialog which objects the boolean object depends on...

 

And I cannot mention this without being reminded of the difference in how Sweep handles custom profile shape compared to how Shell does it. Sweep stores the custom spline object instance - if you merge it to a new scene, you can extract it and edit the instance, then delete it and stop caring about it, nothing ever breaks. Shell supports edge profile which would be incredibly useful, only it isn't unless you collapse the stack right after applying it. If you delete the profile spline as a part of scene cleanup or accidentaly, or merge to a new scene, the profile is gone, segments set to one - and it doesn't pop a message that it couldn't find the profile or anything, you find out too late... I really HATE that, to the point that I stopped using the feature completely and instead throw an edit_poly modifier on top every time. The difference in picked shape handling may seem like a small thing, it's just that max is littered with many such small difference and you have to be constantly aware of them, otherwise you'd be surprised in the final render why the hell does the shelled object smooth so much on the edge (I mainly use to use that for nice sheet metal effect, with the shape gone it looked bad in render).

MartinBeh
Collaborator

WS73099cc142f487553098682e12ac2fc2bc7-722e - WTF?!

eugenio_miolo
Advocate

Wow! You really thought it through didn't you, Swordslayer?! Now, sincerely, 3dsmax developement team should print this and have it in every single desk of them.

 

Anonymous
Not applicable

I totally agree with this, unfortunately Autodesk usually buy the next updates because apparently they need to add a bunch of stuffs to their software to launch a new version every year, and in some cases they directly buy complete packages when they want no competitors (you have for example Maya vs Max, or Revit and AutoCad Architecture)

In the Max case yo have MCG (bought to Ephere) that is added without a full integration yet, same as boolean vs proBoolean (by nPower) and a lot of other cases. All of this strange mixes causes errors in next versions not seen in previous ones like "dot-comma" problems in number inputs, "crazy" orbit mode, polygon cut mode with bugs in the preview and so on.

A relatively safe solution is to fully code your own interface in maxscript adding the commands you use and ignore the features of new versions because some times they add and remove them in future versions.

I have been talking about this kind of problem in Fusion 360 forum but they only justify them instead of listening so I have finally moved to Solidworks to get what I need

Swordslayer
Advisor

@MartinBeh wrote:

WS73099cc142f487553098682e12ac2fc2bc7-722e - WTF?!


Well, that one is ancient, but there are new additions that feel out of place, too. For example the only underscore_case method in the world of camelCase Mesh methods:

 

 

<float>mesh_weld_overlapping_vertices <TriMesh>mesh

NEW in 3ds Max 2017: Welds the overlapping vertices of a TriMesh.

 

dgorsman
Consultant

I'm somewhat curious - would these changes affect existing scripts and other automation?  Not that it's unheard of but if it does the updates should be approached carefully and deliberately to avoid the chorus of "You broke my workflow!!!".

Swordslayer
Advisor
The script method naming? For the individual cases, that could be solved by creating an alias that sticks to the naming convention with a note that for compatibility reasons, there's also the underscore_case version of the same (it wouldn't be the first time). However I pinpoint it here as examples of things that wouldn't happen if there was any convention in the first place, things you can point to an say 'this is confusing and unnecessarily so, get your act together and prevent it from happening again'.
Swordslayer
Advisor

Another comparison: subobject modes in Unwrap UVW vs Edit(able) Poly. Element selection in unwrap is done via a checkbox, in epoly it's a separate mode, border (uv seam) selection in Unwrap? Select a border edge in edge mode and keep growing the selection untill the whole border is selected. In epoly, there's a mode for it, and growing edge selection works in a different way. And so on, also see the UVW Unwrap modes same as in Edit(able) Poly idea

.

Kelly_Michels
Autodesk
Status changed to: Under Review
 
Isaac_Zuniga
Advocate

A more fluid UI? I'm down for that, I'm not sure what it'd look like but I hope that it'd be an updated UI.

 

(Max's UI looks the same from when I first became an Autodesk customer 7 years ago.)

Tupaia
Advocate

7 years?

It's funny how Max still is similar to itself since 1996. =p

 

 

Br0ken1334
Advocate

This "manifest" needs to be on 1st place.

Isaac_Zuniga
Advocate

@Tupaia I'm not that old mate, so I wouldn't know...

 

@Br0ken1334 I agree with you. I believe Maya has had a few UI changes, if I'm not mistaken? Max has had... well, since I started using the program in 2009, none? They've made some additions to what already exists but not any changes to make it feel modern...

 

I personally believe the customization tabs could be heavily modernized, especially for 4K screens...

sijo_animech
Contributor

Wholeheartedly agree with OP. Another area that needs improved consistency is where settings are saved.

 

Right now, settings can be saved in:

  • The max file
  • [User]\Documents\3dsMax (fbx presets)
  • [User]\Autodesk (MCG Stuff, scene converter)
  • [User]\AppData\Local\Autodesk\3dsMax (Most program settings)
  • [Install location] (scripts, plugins, plugin configs)
  • Separate files (settings under Customize > Customize User Interface)
  • There are maybe more that I'm missing

This would be fine if you could tell where different areas of max save its settings to. An example is the viewport configuration menu. Some settings here are saved in the max file (background, safe frames), while some are saved in Appdata (Display performance and ViewCube).

 

Can we please have someone look over this issue? You might even stumble upon a fix to the age old bug where the user's preferences are suddenly deleted...

the new editable motion paths that came in 2018 doesnt work with CAT at all...i was shocked when i found out

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