CUI Editor Enhancements

[dcochran]

Hello,

We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As a customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Doug Cochran
Autodesk, Inc.

[Anonymous]

How about starting from the beginning, which is to define the Problem. What was the CUI system supposed to solve? Partial menus work great. There's just the issue of the MNS/MNC. It seems to me, solve that problem first: make toolbar changes able to immediately affect the MNU, and dump the MNC entirely.

But if the desire to move to a CUI system has nothing to with simplification, or "openness" of an XML standard, but just simply to make it more difficult for us 3rd party developers to make something that works in AutoCAD and IntelliCAD, then at least be honest about that.

Tony Tanzillo has a good point about the CUI being a separate API, able to be called by an installer -- so where's the documentation for this? We desperately need this capability for our installer.

My main problem with the CUI interface is just that it's too difficult to figure out what I'm doing. There's two different "modes", what the heck are those? And then I can select a CUI file on each side, but it's too confusing to figure out what is what.

There is a company near you called IDEO, they specialize in helping companies devoid of good creative ideas just like Autodesk. I suggest you just contract with them to design any new interface.

And one last thought -- rolling out a CUI interface with '06 that didn't even work until the Service Pack was probably a pretty bad idea in retrospect, yes? Maybe a better Beta cycle, allowing users to use either system, and let feedback affect the design of the system.

--Jeremiah

[Anonymous]

Hi Laurie,

What version of AutoCAD are you running? 2006 or 2007? I did some testing
using my IBM T42 Laptop and the CUI opens up in under 8 seconds the first
time and around a second each time after. We made a lot of speed changes
specifically for AutoCAD 2007 so you should see a lot more speed that way.

Also besides speed do you have any suggestions for improving the Editor?

Thanks again for the feedback and we look forward to hearing back from you
about the editor.

Bud Schroeder
AutoCAD Test Development
Autodesk Inc.

"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
news:5146492@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Mark,

It will never be acceptable until you can make it start instantly.

The 10 second average delay to respond to the command to open the dalog box
is a reflection of incompetant programming.

With my slightly modified MNU editing system I can make a change to the MNU
file and reload the modified menu in less time than it takes to open the CUI
editor.


Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au

"mark" wrote in message
news:5146421@discussion.autodesk.com...
give me an option without goowee (GUI)
just plain old text editor option, so i can fine tune
and be in full control

thanks
mark


wrote in message news:5146408@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hello,

We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As
a customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Doug Cochran
Autodesk, Inc.

[Anonymous]

Hello,

Can you tell us what is hard to open? If you have a toolbar that is closed
you can right click any toolbar and select the group it is in. Then turn it
on. Also this is the same as AutoCAD 2005 pre CUI changes.

Thanks and hope this helps.

Bud Schroeder
AutoCAD Test Development
Autodesk Inc.

wrote in message news:5146544@discussion.autodesk.com...
my biggest problem with it is that if you make a custom (partial) menu with
toolbars and you close the tool bar its pretty hard to reopen it

[dcochran]

Thanks everyone for the responses so far (er.. almost everyone that is :-). Keep them coming!

Doug

[Anonymous]

Tony:

> AutoCAD 2007 has a managed API for the CUI, and it
> is not AutoCAD-dependent so it can be loaded and used
> from any process, such as an installer.

Manipulating the files is not really the problem; the problem is knowing
*which* files to manipulate while AutoCAD is not running. With registry
based settings (like profiles), an installer can deterministically find all
profiles for all versions and flavors of locally installed AutoCADs. Maybe
there is a deterministic way to do that with .cui files, but I didn't see
any when I looked at it during the 2006 era. 🙂
--
Owen Wengerd
President, ManuSoft ==> http://www.manusoft.com
VP Americas, CADLock, Inc. ==> http://www.cadlock.com

[Anonymous]

At first, I thought your question was a joke and I had to think about
it. Then I realized that you probably have noticed all the “problems”
that users have concerning the cui. If not, then autodesk should pay
more attention to their customers/users.

First my general comment is that the cui should never have been
initiated. Having said that, I will proceed:

The entire procedure of the cui editor is cumbersome and confusing.
Regardless of experience, it takes a programmer (or a near programmer)
to understand the process of the cui. It took me sometime before I found
that when I wanted to add a new command to any part of the cui, I had to
pick the “New” button at the bottom part of the left side of the editor.
Advising me to go through the process of watching animation on how to
use the cui is worthless – most users do not have the time for this!

On the other hand, when in the upper part of the left hand side of the
cui editor, right clicking brings up commands to have a new Menu or Sub
Menu but _not_ a new command! Why? This is one thing that I would
suggest changing while deleting the New command from the bottom-left.

While not addressing your question directly, I do not understand why
autodesk/autocad decided to go with the cui. It is evident that autodesk
does not fully realize that most autocad users _do not have the
experience_ to correctly navigate the cui.

I teach autocad at our community college (the second largest in the US)
and have decided to not introduce customizing cui because most of my
students do not have enough experience to understand it as opposed to
more fully understanding the mnu, mns system. Essentially, they will go
into the workplace at a disadvantage and their
employers/managers/supervisors do not, nor will not take the time to
help them. In a sense, autodesk has “shot themselves in the foot” and
this will be reflected in the future when more companies/individuals
will walk away from autocad in favor of a more compliant software.

[Anonymous]

If cui was created to make customizing easy for everyone it has failed in
its implementation.
Too slow, too confusing, too undocumented, too restrictive, too much
interface and not enough control.
workspaces good, why not just make that part of the user profile and have
that be on a drop down list to allow for quicker acces rather than going
through options/profiles
If that answers your question I hope you can do something to repair/replace
what currently exists under cui
On the other hand and better still please, please just keep the menu
(mnnu/mns) format available to those who want to keep doing what they've
been doing so succesfully for years.
So many new features to learn, so many new concepts to understand why
frustrate all of that with the additional burden of trying to struggle
through a half baked user interface
So many comments from alot of frustrated users.....must mean
something...please listen to your users.
There is an easier way.... stick with mnu/mns. It's worked so well for so
long. Give us what works
Thanks
Richard


wrote in message news:5146408@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hello,

We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As
a customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Doug Cochran
Autodesk, Inc.

[Anonymous]

rgrainer wrote:
> If cui was created to make customizing easy for everyone it has failed in
> its implementation.
> Too slow, too confusing, too undocumented, too restrictive, too much
> interface and not enough control.
> workspaces good, why not just make that part of the user profile and have
> that be on a drop down list to allow for quicker acces rather than going
> through options/profiles
> If that answers your question I hope you can do something to repair/replace
> what currently exists under cui
> On the other hand and better still please, please just keep the menu
> (mnnu/mns) format available to those who want to keep doing what they've
> been doing so succesfully for years.
> So many new features to learn, so many new concepts to understand why
> frustrate all of that with the additional burden of trying to struggle
> through a half baked user interface
> So many comments from alot of frustrated users.....must mean
> something...please listen to your users.
> There is an easier way.... stick with mnu/mns. It's worked so well for so
> long. Give us what works
> Thanks
> Richard

My feelings exactly!

Jeff Claunch
MHT Luxury Alloys

[Anonymous]

Not quite. In previous versions there was a dialog box available to turn toolbars on/off. AFAIK, this dialog was discontinued in 2006, though the command line interface is still there.

"Right click any toolbar" is not possible if no toolbar is visible.

[Anonymous]

To say I'm disappointed at this cui thing is an understatement.

When introducing new features, especially such significant ones, please do your testing. Test, test and test again before release! And please provide adequate documentation to make usage and customization not so difficult. How many users here are satisfied with the documentation of sheetset manager in the VBA reference? Autodesk had the whole year to improve it since they introduced it in 2005. But seems nothing was done to this regard. And now we're looking at this ugly cui thing which is even worse. It is not a $30 or $300 software. Users are expecting something better. I suppose most companies need to make money. Who can afford that amount of time to having employees debugging software? This is supposed to be Autodesk's work. Plus, Autodesk is releasing new version every year! (This probably can be another topic.) IMHO, most new features, if not coming with sufficient documentation which allows customization, using lisp, vba, arx, or whatever else are probably not worth trying for those who have been customizing AutoCAD, because they probably have spent their time to figure out how to accomplish that already. Maybe in different ways, but they work, and they're under full control.

Finally, whatever Autodesk is going to do with cui, please don't drop mns.

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the opportunity, Doug.

(I use Autocad 2006, so disregard any of these suggestions that have already been added to 2007.)

A.
I think the drag'n'drop from the 'Command List' to the 'Customisations in all CUI files' section needs to be fixed. It automatically scrolls at (fairly) high speed as soon as you enter the scroll area. The only way around it is to do an anti-clockwise semi-circle maneuver with the mouse.

B.
I don't know if this is already possible, but how about relative paths for bitmap locations?

C.
Workspace import and export (or drag'n'drop)?

D.
Copy'n'Paste of whole or partial toolbars, pull-downs etc. (mentioned by other replies)

E.
Vaguely related: More than one enterprise menu. An enterprise path? Used only for items called from the enterprise cui.

F.
How about utilising right-clicks a little more?

G.
Multiple copy of strings of text, like Microsoft Office.

H.
A filter for the 'Command List'. As in the layer dialog.

I.
Search and replace of text. (Checkboxes of which fields to search.)

J.
How about a more simple way of ordering the pull-down menus?

K.
Once again, vaguely related: How about fixing the toolbar placement & lock facility? I still have toolbars that don't stay where I want them to.

L.
How about being a bit more HELPful? Context sensitive help would be great, especially with stuff like the Element ID.

M.
How about having the images in the 'Button Image' area in groupings of where they come from. dll, bmp file, etc
How about which menu (or partial) they are related to?

As for going back to mns files?
Yes mns files were easier to edit, but the CUI system is OK.
Autodesk have been moving towards complete Windows integration for years, obvious to anybody who wanted to see the patterns.
The mns system was (obviously) incapable of being modified to suit the advanced requirements.
I just hope Autodesk don't add those (Microsoft Office style) silly shrinking pull-down menus!! ;-)))

Anyway, cheers!

Matt

[Anonymous]

> Bring back the old way. It worked fine before your team "updated" it.

sorry about your work, but it's same voice for me.

And I will not speak about "noobs" (I don't complain about them, it's normal
that they wish to test it) who want to "test" this new CUI Editor...wast of
time.

Bruno Toniutti
CAD Manager
(sorry for my english level)

[Anonymous]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:59:56 +0000, dcochran <> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As a customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Okay, my previous snide comment aside, this has almost nothing to do with the
CUI per se, but here's a UI enhancement I'd really, REALLY like to see:

Brink back Total Mouse Button Freedom.

That's right. You heard me. Total Mouse Button Freedom. Give it back.

Meaning: Since Autodesk introduced Middle Mouse Button Pan, those of us who
historically used (and liked) assigning keyboard macros to the Middle Mouse
Button have been effectively hosed. The MBP feature locks you out of assigning
commands to the MMB via SHIFT+MMB, CTRL+MMB or SHIFT+CTRL+MMB.

That's three places where we can assign often used commands (ortho toggle,
preloaded osnaps, zoom window, etc) that have been simply taken away. Gone. As
much as we all love MBP, it's inconceivable to me that we lost so much
functionality in the process. For me and many of my users it's no bargain and we
actually have MBUTTONPAN=0.

Anything that gets often used command operations in the user's fingertips is a
great thing, as we've all discovered with MBP. But at least extend the existing
functionality without hosing us in the process.

I mean, this is really simple event-driven programming here. How hard would it
have been to collect and assign ALL mouse events, including drags like in MBP,
such that we did not lose such valuable functionality? You already adressed this
somewhat in the time-sensitive right-button feature, so it's evident that it is
possible.

And you shouldn't stop there. Why not re-examine the whole mouse button
situation and extend it to its logical endpoint - Mouse Button Gestures.

This is a simple feature where you create and assign not just click operations,
but "shape" operations to commands. For example, a left-click/drag in a
lower-left-to-upper-right diagonal movement performs a Zoom Window (using those
endpoints as the window). A reverse operation (UR to LL) does a Zoom Extents. A
click/drag in an upside down "U" shape does a Zoom Previous.

You would create a very simple Recorder app for mouse gestures, where you
perform a gesture and assign it to something.

Of course, you could assign a keyboard combo to these "swish" movements as well
for additional commands. And not be limited to just CTRL, SHIFT and CTRL+SHIFT.
The combinations are limitless.

In addition, we should be able to wrap up these MBG assignments into a named
style, and swap them out on a whim. For example, drafting operations might
assign a set of drafting command to the mouse gestures; but an MBG style could
be created for 3D operations (especially orbiting) which would copy the same
ones that are in 3ds max/VIZ, for those of us who are used to using those
programs in conjunction with AutoCAD. That way, swapping between apps is a lot
more productive because our hands are trained.

Matt
mstachoni@comcast.net
mstachoni@bhhtait.com

[Anonymous]

I'm on 2007.

21 seconds first time
8-9 seconds eaqch time afterward

Compaq P4 - 1.5Ghz w/ 784 Mb RAM

[Anonymous]

Hi Matt,
I don't understand this complaint. You've brought it up many times before. Have
you tried MBUTTONPAN=0? You get all of your menus back. I for one love the
middle mouse button pan and would like to keep it.

Have you considered getting a swiss army type mouse with more than 3 buttons?

Regards.



"Matt Stachoni" wrote in message
news:5148540@discussion.autodesk.com...
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:59:56 +0000, dcochran <> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As a
customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Okay, my previous snide comment aside, this has almost nothing to do with the
CUI per se, but here's a UI enhancement I'd really, REALLY like to see:

Brink back Total Mouse Button Freedom.

That's right. You heard me. Total Mouse Button Freedom. Give it back.

Meaning: Since Autodesk introduced Middle Mouse Button Pan, those of us who
historically used (and liked) assigning keyboard macros to the Middle Mouse
Button have been effectively hosed. The MBP feature locks you out of assigning
commands to the MMB via SHIFT+MMB, CTRL+MMB or SHIFT+CTRL+MMB.

That's three places where we can assign often used commands (ortho toggle,
preloaded osnaps, zoom window, etc) that have been simply taken away. Gone. As
much as we all love MBP, it's inconceivable to me that we lost so much
functionality in the process. For me and many of my users it's no bargain and we
actually have MBUTTONPAN=0.

Anything that gets often used command operations in the user's fingertips is a
great thing, as we've all discovered with MBP. But at least extend the existing
functionality without hosing us in the process.

I mean, this is really simple event-driven programming here. How hard would it
have been to collect and assign ALL mouse events, including drags like in MBP,
such that we did not lose such valuable functionality? You already adressed this
somewhat in the time-sensitive right-button feature, so it's evident that it is
possible.

And you shouldn't stop there. Why not re-examine the whole mouse button
situation and extend it to its logical endpoint - Mouse Button Gestures.

This is a simple feature where you create and assign not just click operations,
but "shape" operations to commands. For example, a left-click/drag in a
lower-left-to-upper-right diagonal movement performs a Zoom Window (using those
endpoints as the window). A reverse operation (UR to LL) does a Zoom Extents. A
click/drag in an upside down "U" shape does a Zoom Previous.

You would create a very simple Recorder app for mouse gestures, where you
perform a gesture and assign it to something.

Of course, you could assign a keyboard combo to these "swish" movements as well
for additional commands. And not be limited to just CTRL, SHIFT and CTRL+SHIFT.
The combinations are limitless.

In addition, we should be able to wrap up these MBG assignments into a named
style, and swap them out on a whim. For example, drafting operations might
assign a set of drafting command to the mouse gestures; but an MBG style could
be created for 3D operations (especially orbiting) which would copy the same
ones that are in 3ds max/VIZ, for those of us who are used to using those
programs in conjunction with AutoCAD. That way, swapping between apps is a lot
more productive because our hands are trained.

Matt
mstachoni@comcast.net
mstachoni@bhhtait.com

[HE-MJJ]

I'm sorry to say,

Another thing that sucks about the new CUI.

When having the CUI opened I had done a lot of adjustments not saving these yet. Someone came by and I had to minimalize the AutoCAD window. After that I returned and all my adjustmens were gone!!!!! At first I thought I forgot to save it. Then, when this happened again I realized when minimalizing AutoCAD the CUI dialoge just disapears!!!!

Great, that new CUI!!! When is AutoDESK going to do something about this?!?!?

I also still have problems with the Icons not being refreshed when I djusted them (mostley, not always). I'd have to close and reopen the CUI to update the icons. And when changing in the property fields I have to wait a few secons every time. Also verry annoying!!!!!

I'm sorry to be complaining like this. I always was verry content with AutCAD but I realy feel they've made a mistake changing the CUI the way they did.

Luckely, when I finish reorganizing my toolbars and menu's I won't have to pay much more attention to it.

So what needs to be improved;

1. I wan to be able to drag and drop (move/copy) buttons from one toolbar into the other.
2. I want changing fields not to delay seconds.
3. I want the icons always to refresh as they get changed.
4. When saving the Iconname I also want the name updated in the propertiy fields.
5. I want to be able to select choose a color from the Icon in witch colors are already used.
6. I want to send an invoice to AutoDESK for the time I have spent reorgenizing my toolbars and menu's. 🙂

M

[Anonymous]

Doug,

I'm currently running Land Desktop 2006, so hopefully at least some of these
have been addressed in 2007.

I knew the MNx was method very well, but unlike most, I did feel like there
was room for improvement. When I initially read about the CUI feature, I
was pretty excited about it. I like the idea that any menu entry only has
to be defined once, and then it can be called from a Toolbar or a Pulldown.
Of course, like everyone else, I was extremely let down by the delivered
product. The CUI interface is bloated, cumbersome, precarious and just
generally unintuitive. In short, it seems like it was rushed to market
(which is the underlying theme of 75% of my posts here). The main issues
that I have with it are as follows:

* It's slow to open. Don't pat yourselves on the back that you've reduced
the load time from 10 seconds in 2006 to 8 seconds in 2007.

* Fix this issue with *UNRESOLVED* pulldowns that actually work.
http://discussion.autodesk.com/thread.jspa?threadID=404331

* Fix this issue with the scattered toolbars.
http://discussion.autodesk.com/thread.jspa?messageID=4986614

* Restore the ability to drag and drop buttons onto custom Toolbars in the
AutoCAD session without going into the CUI editor. All of my users used to
be very comfortable with creating their own toolbars graphically. The
novice users didn't necessarily know (or care) what MNx file their toolbars
lived in, but the method was intuitive enough for them to create exactly
what they needed. Even better, the advanced users knew to create their
custom toolbars in a separate MNx file so it could easily be applied to
future upgrades. Now, both novice and advanced users are confused.
"Partial WHAT?"

* Like Martti mentioned, we need documentation! When using a Main CUI and
several partials as well as an Enterprise CUI with several partials, what is
the order of precedence for things like temporary overrides, mouse buttons,
accelerator keys, etc?

* I'd like for it to be much easier for administrators to edit the
Enterprise CUI in place. Prior to CUIs, most administrators just used
permissions on the enterprise-wise MNx. The current method or setting the
Enterprise CUI as the Main CUI is much more cumbersome. I use a separate
profile for editing the Enterprise CUI and its partials, but even still this
method for editing seems like an afterthought.

* The drag and drop interface seems to be a lot more flaky than any other
application I've ever used. I'm not sure if it's just too sensitive or if
it's misinterpreting the position of my pointer, but I usually have to
position commands twice to get them exactly where I want them.

* Like others who have posted in this thread, I think it might make more
sense for workspaces to be stored in the profile rather than in the CUI
file(s). But I do like the idea of using both enterprise-wide workspaces
and user-defined workspaces.

* I have several users that want their toolbars to stay put when switching
workspaces (as with Menu Palettes in LDT). As of 2006, this is only an
option for dockable windows.

* I haven't seen anyone else post about this, so I'm not sure if it's a LDT
specific issue, or if I did something wrong... On all of my systems
hitting OK in the CUI editor does not save the changes. We all have to hit
APPLY before hitting OK to save changes. In every other application I've
ever used, OK implies an Apply.

* Address the most common issues from this thread, and issue them as a SP2
for 2006 and SP1 for 2007. Please don't make us wait for 2008. The
non-subscription customers who bought 2006 deserve better than what they
got, and many of us who are on subscription don't intend on upgrading every
year.

--
Ralph Sanchez
http://www.texupport.net
--


wrote in message news:5146408@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hello,

We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As
a customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Doug Cochran
Autodesk, Inc.

[Anonymous]

Martti,

You can "retrieve" the off-screen dialog using the standard Windows UI...
hit Alt+Spacebar, select the move option, and use the arrow keys to move the
dialog back on-screen. Although I too wish it wouldn't be required to jump
thru that hoop.

--
R. Robert Bell


"Martti Halminen" wrote in message
news:5146805@discussion.autodesk.com...
...
- The system records the position of the CUI window in the profile, and
on next start opens it in the same place. This creates a problem when I
use it on a machine with two screens, and save the profile, and later
try to start CUI using that profile when on a machine with only one
screen. The program doesn't bother to check whether the saved
coordinates are in a displayable location. So, I have a modal dialog
sitting off-screen, with no other way to recover than killing AutoCAD
with Task Manager. (tabbing to cancel blindly might work, if I happened
to remember where the default is in this situation.)
...

[Anonymous]

One more peeve that I left out of my last message:

When "Automatically Save Changes to Workspace" is checked on, the main CUI
file is saved every time the user shuts down - regardless of whether or not
he actually made changes to it. This means that, at each startup, the main
CUI file has a revised timestamp and the MNR is recompiled. I have a lot of
users who like to use "Automatically Save Changes" but doing so makes their
startup a little slower (and 2006's startup is already slow enough). It
seems like this would be such a simple fix: If the menufile is "dirty" at
shutdown, then save it. If not, don't.

--
Ralph Sanchez
http://www.texupport.net
--


wrote in message news:5146408@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hello,

We are looking at ways to improve and enhance the CUI Editor in AutoCAD. As
a customer, what improvements would you like to see with CUI?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Doug Cochran
Autodesk, Inc.

[Anonymous]

I'm surprised more haven't mentioned item K (locking positions). It was
disappointing to have the locking feature added in 2006, yet it still not
work with the load order of the cui structure.

--
R. Robert Bell


wrote in message news:5148446@discussion.autodesk.com...
...
K.
Once again, vaguely related: How about fixing the toolbar placement & lock
facility? I still have toolbars that don't stay where I want them to.