Masonry wall design

bjur
Collaborator

Masonry wall design

bjur
Collaborator
Collaborator
Can robot design masonry shearwalls / bearing walls? There are many masonry structures here in the US and I assume a program this powerful could design structures like this. Do I just create a wall element with similar stiffness properties as a masonry wall? Can robot provide wall stress / loading summeries or do I need to sum forces in the plates by hand?
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Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support
Accepted solution

There is no devoted design module for masonry walls available but you can define a panel with corresponding material properties. You can access results in many different ways such as maps or cuts (graphical display) as well as tables (e.g reduced results for panels).

 

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Artur Kosakowski

Anonymous
Not applicable

Well, i'm just wondering, is it any option in RSA  to create a structure (in this case,  masonry wall with opening, assume, that reinforced concrete lintel holds all the load), which has no tensile strengh? Thanks very much for your reply.

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Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

No, there is not unless you delete the part over the linter (where you have tension) and 'replace' the weight of this part with load applied directly to the lintel.



Artur Kosakowski
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Anonymous
Not applicable

@Artur.Kosakowski,

is it possible to model plate element with compression stiffness only in defined direction? I think that was original question.
In that way the masonry walls could be obtained.

 

Regards

Ivan

Anonymous
Not applicable
Any new info regarding imatoric question?

Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

Is this what you mean? 

 

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Artur Kosakowski

Refaat
Advisor
Advisor

Dear Artur

 

Greetings

 

1. Could you find out if I have defined correctly the brick walls as panels have only (compression stiffness) (transfer the slab load to the foundation) or not?
(Please see the capture)

 

2. Is correct to use the linear release at the boundary of brick walls to prevent any moment transferring between (slab& columns) and brick walls? If so, how do I overcome the instability message (type 1)?
(Please resend the rtd. File after correction)


3. Also, is correct to use a linear support instead of bar (lintel) to avoid any tensile strength in the part of brick wall above this lintel or you have another suggestion ?

 

Best Regards
Refaat

 

02.jpg

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Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

Dear Refaat,

 

I'm afraid that modelling a structure like yours in Robot is difficult. The instability is due to both vertical edges of wall in the corner they meet are released. Perhaps a better choice would be to separate both walls from a column and connect them (if needed) with short bars instead?

I don't think that the lintels can be modeled as supports. 

 

I'd say the better approach would be to use the load take down approach which used to be available in CBS but is not part of Robot.

 

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Artur Kosakowski
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Refaat
Advisor
Advisor

 

 

Dear Artur


Thank you for your response.

 

The main aim of this modelling to do the structural model for (Masonry building confined with RC beams, tie columns and slabs) as shown in the screen shot.
The brick works will be considered as (Bearing walls) and purpose of these tie RC columns to improve the horizontal and vertical bearing walls capacity (Membrane and shear stiffness of walls) whether gravity or seismic loads But (No flexure).

 

Could you help me how to do the best modelling for this type of structures?

 

My attempt as you see in the capture below.

 

1. Could you verify if I defined correctly the Masonry wall as Bearing wall is or not? Because still I have flexure moments at the corners of these walls. Which shouldn’t be appeared.

 

2. I would like to define the beams just rested on the bearing walls and its transfer only vertical loads to the bearing walls.


3. How do I defined the lintels where don’t have any tensile stress in the upper part of the wall over it.

 

Note: for your reference I sent you in (PM) full document concerning this structure type

 

Also , rtd. File is attached


Best Regards
Refaat

 

 

001-010.jpg002-010.jpg003-010.jpg004-010.jpg

 

Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

I'm sorry but I'm not aware of a modelling method of masonry wall with shell type elements which would exactly resemble the way such wall works especially when you want to include lintels. I'd say that typically you just estimate the resultant forces and bending moment acting on such wall (reduced results for panel) and then you design it in the dedicated tool (calculator). 

 

The other option would be to use the software which analyse the load distribution using the load takedown approach as used to be possible in CBS (see the attached picture).

 

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Artur Kosakowski

Refaat
Advisor
Advisor

Dear Artur

 

Thank you for your answer

 

Actually, I look forward to model concrete structure which its RC beams rested on the masonry walls (Bearing walls) as long as (No transferring moment from RC beam to the masonry wall) and the walls confined with RC columns.

 

So, the interaction between the RC beams and masonry walls leads to reduce the RC beam size as well the mount of reinforcement for these beams

 

While as the RC columns increase the horizontal and vertical capacity of these masonry walls.

 

However, the interaction between the RC members (beams& columns) is very importance in this type of structure.

 

Please, take a look to the attached (capture and file) to see if I modelled the structure correctly or not?

 Specially, the masonry walls and panel calculation model.

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cjo35rvqlz13dwt/Capture%20%26%20file%20%28Masonry%20structure%20confined%2...

 

 

Thank you a lot for your support

 

Refaat

 

 

Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

Dear Rafaat,

 

I'm sorry but I find it difficult to tell you this is right or wrong as shell type surface elements as available in Robot are not intended to model masonry behavior. You can see this looking at the bending moment in beams which is zero as the entire load is transferred to the wall below. Perhaps you could consider modelling the linear releases with elasticity for vertical direction and do the same for the horizontal direction for links among the columns and the walls.

 

linear releases1.PNG

 

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Artur Kosakowski
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Refaat
Advisor
Advisor

Dear Artur

 

Greetings

 

Thank you for your helpful answer.  I shall have been faster to response.

 

As you see in the first attached capture. I have tried to keep the required interaction between the frame elements (beam & columns) with the masonry wall by blocking (Uy) once and using the linear release with elasticity as you suggested in another once.

. At the same time I need the masonry wall act as purely membrane element in both direction (x&y). So, I reduced the stiffness coefficients as in the second attached capture.

 

In both tries still there are slight moments and shears values in the wall. (Third capture)

 

  • May I conclude that the shell element doesn’t represent the real modelling of membrane elements even with stiffness reduction and using the linear release?

 

  • Could I consider what I did the best way to model the masonry wall with RC frame in RSA? Or you have another suggestion.

 

  • Shall I use detailed membrane forces or complex membrane forces in order to compare the results with required design resistance (forth capture)?

 

  • In order to avoid any tension in the part over the lintel shall I use very stiff member? If so, what is the properties of this element?

  

Note : rtd. file is attached 

 

 

Thanks a lot

 

Refaat

 

000.jpg

 

 

001.jpg

 

 

002.jpg

 

 

003.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

Dear Refaat,

 

  • May I conclude that the shell element doesn’t represent the real modelling of membrane elements even with stiffness reduction and using the linear release?

Correct. They are not design to behave as masonry. 

 

I'm sorry but I don't have any additional ideas about modelling this type of walls in Robot in addition to these I already posted and I don't think I'm able to make a better model than yours. The only thing I'd consider is to model a walls without openings and lintels and 'taking care' of them designing a wall separately (e.g. in some calculator) based on reduced forces obtained from Robot.

 

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Artur Kosakowski

Refaat
Advisor
Advisor

 Dear Artur

 

Greetings

 

Thank you for your clear responses.

 

Eventually, Could you please give me some hints when shall I use ( Principal results and complex results (Mises) because I usually used to read the detailed results only ? e.g. (membrane forces )

 

Thank you a lot

 

Refaat

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Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

 

Principal results
You may be interested in the load transfer (direction) and this is nicely illustrated by crosses (last tab) which correspond to principal stresses (1 and 2). See also:
http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/robot-structural-analysis-forum/q1-2-meaning/m-p/6593531
http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/robot-structural-analysis-forum/plate-principal-moments/m-p/5731517
In addition you have the access to the global and total displacements from there.
complex results (Mises)
Total value of stress in a structure with steel walls e.g. a tank or silo.
If you find your post answered press the Accept as Solution button please. This will help other users to find solutions much faster. Thank you.

 

 



Artur Kosakowski

Refaat
Advisor
Advisor

Dear Artur

Greetings


Thank you to point me to these threads which are explained the theoretical bases of (Principles & complex results). Moreover I have read the help contents related to the same subject.

 

So, my understanding as following. Please could you review it and correct me?

  

1. The principle stress value in each principle direction = the stress value in each direction whether (1) or (2)) + (the stress value (12)).

Whereas the crosses represents ((the direction of principle axis of each finite element and the arm length represents the stress magnitude)).

  

2. Complex value represents the reduced stress value of each finite element which also include the stress value (XY).

  

Since both of them (Principle & complex) is included plane stress value ((12) &(XY)) respectively .

 

My inquiry :

 

Still I am confused  Which one of them (Principle or Complex) shall I used to compare it with the stress design value (e.g. Masonry wall or Concrete wall …etc ) (second capture)?

 

Or shall I compare the stress design value with the stress value of detailed results for each direction?

 


Thank you a lot

Refaat

 

000.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

001.jpg

 

 

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Refaat
Advisor
Advisor

 

Dear Artur

 

Greetings

 

Please , Could you  help me to get response  ?

 

Thank you a lot

 

Refaat

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Artur.Kosakowski
Autodesk Support
Autodesk Support

Or shall I compare the stress design value with the stress value of detailed results for each direction?

 

IMHO there is no point to look at von Mises stress for masonry and following the changes in the direction of stresses would be not practical so I'd look at the vertical and horizontal directions instead.

 

If you find your post answered press the Accept as Solution button please. This will help other users to find solutions much faster. Thank you.



Artur Kosakowski
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ADC Media
We use ADC Media to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by ADC Media. Ads are based on both ADC Media data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that ADC Media has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to ADC Media to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. ADC Media Privacy Policy
AgrantSEM
We use AgrantSEM to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by AgrantSEM. Ads are based on both AgrantSEM data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that AgrantSEM has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to AgrantSEM to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. AgrantSEM Privacy Policy
Bidtellect
We use Bidtellect to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bidtellect. Ads are based on both Bidtellect data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bidtellect has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bidtellect to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bidtellect Privacy Policy
Bing
We use Bing to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bing. Ads are based on both Bing data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bing has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bing to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bing Privacy Policy
G2Crowd
We use G2Crowd to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by G2Crowd. Ads are based on both G2Crowd data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that G2Crowd has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to G2Crowd to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. G2Crowd Privacy Policy
NMPI Display
We use NMPI Display to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by NMPI Display. Ads are based on both NMPI Display data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that NMPI Display has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to NMPI Display to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. NMPI Display Privacy Policy
VK
We use VK to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by VK. Ads are based on both VK data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that VK has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to VK to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. VK Privacy Policy
Adobe Target
We use Adobe Target to test new features on our sites and customize your experience of these features. To do this, we collect behavioral data while you’re on our sites. This data may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, your IP address or device ID, your Autodesk ID, and others. You may experience a different version of our sites based on feature testing, or view personalized content based on your visitor attributes. Adobe Target Privacy Policy
Google Analytics (Advertising)
We use Google Analytics (Advertising) to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Google Analytics (Advertising). Ads are based on both Google Analytics (Advertising) data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Google Analytics (Advertising) has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Google Analytics (Advertising) to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Google Analytics (Advertising) Privacy Policy
Trendkite
We use Trendkite to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Trendkite. Ads are based on both Trendkite data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Trendkite has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Trendkite to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Trendkite Privacy Policy
Hotjar
We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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