ACI Concrete Column Design not able to validate Robot's Results

ACI Concrete Column Design not able to validate Robot's Results

DonBAE
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Message 1 of 29

ACI Concrete Column Design not able to validate Robot's Results

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

I'm looking at a simple short column with biaxial moment creating a resultant moment at 45 degrees. I have several questions. 16"x24" column, 10ft tall, (6)#8 vertical (3 bars on the long side), f'c = 6 ks

1. what is U?

2. what is phi*Sn?

3. On the 3D interaction surface and on the 2nd interaction plot right clicking and selecting governing case appears to do nothing.

4. Clicking on help withing the column design tool produces the index page, it appears no help documentation for this module exists???

5. How does Robot determine the capacity, is it based on a vector projection from the load point out to the capacity curve?

6. When viewing the My-Mz interaction plot how do we set N to be at the applied load, again right clicking and selecting governing case appears to do nothing?

7. What stress block does Robot use, whitney block, PCA Parabolic, something else?

 

Possible major error in Robot:

Reported Capacity:

Screenshot from 2021-06-03 21-03-59.png

Robot produced P-M Curve: Note on the Curve displayed it is not possible to be at Phi*Mn=265.85 ft-kips while also obtaining a Phi-Pn = 1153.81 kips. something seems very off here. 

Screenshot from 2021-06-03 21-05-45.png

 

Excel Verification of the same column and loading with matching unit vector approach:
Yields phi-Pn = 841.27 kips and phi-Mnx=phi-Mny=189.29 ft-kips = phi-Mn = 267.69 ft-kips [Whitney Stress Block]

Screenshot from 2021-06-03 21-14-53.png

The excel verification has also been confirmed using two other commercially available software packages.

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Replies (28)
Message 2 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

anyone able to provide some help on this.

 

I think primarily I need to know

how are the capacities reported in robot?

What is U and phi-Sn these have no context in the ACI code?

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Message 3 of 29

okapawal
Autodesk
Autodesk

There is some info in the Help content.  Indeed the this page is not linked correctly with the dialog

okapawal_0-1623074334142.png

https://help.autodesk.com/view/RSAPRO/2021/ENU/?guid=GUID-DF2813E3-DEB3-4146-8B4A-57A84C266819

 

I can ask dev team for detailed answer.

 



Waldemar Okapa

Sr Product Owner
Message 4 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator
To clarify my last point U and Sn are noted in ACI but described as all forces relevant to the section design. Robot does not appear to document what all of these forces are, how was phi-Sn = 0.57 computed? Robot provided no context for U, how was U=0.19 computed?
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Message 5 of 29

gwizdzm
Autodesk
Autodesk

Hi @DonBAE 

At first about our coefficient phi-Sn/U. We based on ACI 318-18 paragraph 4.6. In our solution it is "compound" safety factor that takes into account all forces and effects. Slenderness effect too. I think that you haven't disabled slenderness effects. Probably when the axial force is growing the slender starts be important for that column and failure path is non-linear. Something like this:

slender.png

This coefficient is computed iteratively. When reinforcement is set we internally make a few steps of cross-section analysis increasing or decreasing proportionally axial force and both moments. At the end we have "safety factor" which includes all effects.

How to check it? If you "freeze" reinforcement and multiply axial force and both moments by 2.99 you can see that "force arrow" is more inclined and they touch the strength diagram. I hope. If not peace send me your example and I check whats going on.
Second possibility: you can disable slenderness for both direction and it start works as you want - factor will be proportional to lengths marked in your drawing. Values should be similar to the excel.
Hope you find this information helpful

Regards

Michal Gwizdz

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Message 6 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

slenderness is disabled so this is a "short" column.

 

please elaborate on what you mean by "compound" safety factor, how exactly was phi-Sn =0.57 computed in the print out screen shot, How exactly was U=0.19 computed? 0.57 and 0.19 are arbitrary numbers that have no meaning and I cannot effectively back check your solution if you do not actually show me how your solution was computed or what it relates too.

 

"

At the end we have "safety factor" which includes all effects.

How to check it? If you "freeze" reinforcement and multiply axial force and both moments by 2.99 you can see that "force arrow" is more inclined and they touch the strength diagram. "  

Is it equivalent to say that for a "short" column the capacity is determined by passing a vector through the origin and P-M curve such that the vector is parallel and coincident to the load action vector?

 

Is the reported phi-Pn related to how U was calculated or is his the pure axial strength of the column neglecting moment?

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Message 7 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

here is the calculation file, I am new to using Robot and trying to validate calculations before using the software for actual production so perhaps maybe I've done something wrong.

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Message 8 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

took me a second but believe I understand this "If you "freeze" reinforcement and multiply axial force and both moments by 2.99 you can see that "force arrow" is more inclined and they touch the strength diagram. I hope. " so increasing P, My, Mz by 2.99 --> 2.99*(Mz i + My j + P k) yields a load vector just slightly beyond the interaction surface, simply a bit of rounding error here.

DonBAE_0-1623089526034.png

 

FYI I like to use the "Robot" theme which is a dark theme, however the N-M curve is not visible with that theme:

(as a new user seeing small details like this missed, which in my short time with the program have been abundant as far as UI inconsistencies or lack of function, leads to a sense of questioning if small details in calculations are being missed as well)

DonBAE_1-1623089578793.png

 

Based on this result it appears that the Whitney Stress block is used for the compression region, can you please confirm this?

"Probably when the axial force is growing the slender starts be important for that column and failure path is non-linear" I guess I'm not understanding how this is relevant to the cross section capacity calculation, ACI's treatment of slenderness is a modification of the applied loads not a reduction in the capacity surface, perhaps if you could provide complete documentation on how these values are being computed that would be helpful in understanding. It almost seems that you are saying Robot is performing non-linear analysis to determine the capacity at various axial load levels but that doesn't seem to align with ACI and if that is the case what initiating delta,1 and delta,2 are being used for columns desiged only within this tool and not part of a larger model?

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Message 9 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

The previous diagrams the Robot had replaced the reinf. with #9 bars in the corners and #4 skin bars, replacing it with the proper reinf of (3)#8 on each long face now yields 1.0 for the various interactions.

DonBAE_2-1623091523558.png

 

 

DonBAE_5-1623091571047.png

can you please in detail explain how U=0.57 was computed?

 

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Message 10 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

Another question the load point of Pu=837.20, Myu=188.37 and Mzu=188.37 is the results of the 2.99 amplification as such this load point lies on the P-M curve. 

 

Again the load point is on the P-M curve, how is it then possible that Robot is reporting a phi-Pn of 847.61 kips??

DonBAE_6-1623091960650.png

 

 

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Message 11 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

In the "Column - note" it would be very helpful for back checking if you reported:

- the x,y coordinates of the longitudinal steel used in the cross section computations.

- code section references in brackets after any value/line that comes from or checks against a specific code section 

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Message 12 of 29

okapawal
Autodesk
Autodesk

Let us some time to review the code and implementation.  We will be back.



Waldemar Okapa

Sr Product Owner
Message 13 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

@okapawal 

as an example please see the "Section Capacity Ratio Calculation Methods" presented on this page: https://structurepoint.org/soft/software-profile.asp?l_family_id=58

 

this clearly defines how that software package calculates the section capacity ratio, I'd be looking for similar information from Robot. It would be very nice to also get information similar to that presented in Chapter 2 of their manual: https://structurepoint.org/pdfs/manuals/spColumn-manual.pdf

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Message 14 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

@okapawal are you able to provide any further information on this? Thank you

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Message 15 of 29

okapawal
Autodesk
Autodesk

Not yet, I think we will be able to look at it this week.



Waldemar Okapa

Sr Product Owner
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Message 16 of 29

gwizdzm
Autodesk
Autodesk

@DonBAE I try to answer for your questions one by one. Maybe not all of them in one post. At the beginning, as example everywhere I've used your file with #4 skin bars.

"a load vector just slightly beyond the interaction surface, simply a bit of rounding error here."

We have two issues here.
The First is to draw interaction diagram. We draw it based on dozen points at North-South direction and dozens on East-West. Between these points the linear interpolation is used. Additionally, 3D curve is cut by plane to create 2D curve and it gives additional interpolations. So, slight differences are expected but they should be acceptable because this is only graphical effect without any impact to calculation.

Second is safety coefficient. It is calculated very accurately but shown depend to the RSA preferences:

gwizdzm_0-1623940787718.png

 

If we need to have a safety coefficient with 0.1% accuracy we have to use multiply factor with 5 digit accuracy... This is close to our internal calculation accuracy in that case.

" however the N-M curve is not visible with that theme"

Yes, its small UI problem. In fact, 3D and 2D diagram color should be depend on RSA preferences definition:

gwizdzm_1-1623940787730.png

 

Unfortunately, it have impact only on 3D curve... I'll report it.

"Based on this result it appears that the Whitney Stress block is used for the compression region, can you please confirm this?"

Yes, we use "equivalent rectangular concrete stress distribution" (Whitney rectangular stress distribution) based on ACI 318-14 22.2.2.4.3

 

gwizdzm_2-1623940787733.png

 

"I guess I'm not understanding how this is relevant to the cross section capacity calculation, ACI's treatment of slenderness is a modification of the applied loads not a reduction in the capacity surface, perhaps if you could provide complete documentation on how these values are being computed that would be helpful in understanding."

Generally, our diagram it is the curve for column not for section. All forces outside of 3D curve are unsafe for the column. This diagram is not used for design, nor for verification of the column. It is only graphical representation of the "safe" and "unsafe" regions for column. If we turn off slenderness of the column the interaction curve for column is the same as for section.

First of all, we have algorithm to calculate if set of forces (N,My,Mz) is "safe" or "unsafe" for section with rebars. I'm not sure if this algorithm is interesting for you... If yes let me know.
The rest of algorithm based on that first:
- Starting from minimum reinforcement up to maximum reinforcement we looking for rebar sets which will be safe for all combination. If slender is important, first we modify forces and next made calculation based on that new set.

- The lightest rebar set from "safe" pool is taken as finial solution

- For this set of rebar, we take each one combination and multiply (axial force and both moments) by factor. If slender is important see above. When we find two very close factors where one "is safe" but second "is unsafe" we can say the smaller of them is the "safety factor"

- At last step we create 3D interaction diagram. As I wrote above, it is calculated at discrete points. At the beginning in the space N, My, Mz we create small "sphere" of point/forces (Ni, Myi, Mzi). These points can be treated as virtual set of "combination" and use the algorithm described above. At the end we multiply these forces by their safety factors. It gives us pints/forces on the interactive curve. Based on this we can draw the curve using linear interpolation between them.

 

Of course real algorithm is more complicated but above you can see how its main steps look like.

 

I hope that it helps you.

Michal Gwizdz

 

 

 

 

 

Message 17 of 29

DonBAE
Collaborator
Collaborator

@gwizdzm Thank you that response is helpful however you seem to have avoided addressing what I feel is the most critical missing pieces of information. Again specifically how are U and phi-Sn computed? In the above example these report values of U=0.19 and phi-Sn=0.57, 0.19 and 0.57 are arbitrary decimal numbers without the specific context of how they were calculated. 

 

"...First of all, we have algorithm to calculate if set of forces (N,My,Mz) is "safe" or "unsafe" for section with rebars. I'm not sure if this algorithm is interesting for you... If yes let me know...."

I would be interested to know more about this, I understand specifics of the algorithm likely cannot be shared but a general flow chart would be helpful in further understanding what is being done by Robot.

 

 

"...

- Starting from minimum reinforcement up to maximum reinforcement we looking for rebar sets which will be safe for all combination. If slender is important, first we modify forces and next made calculation based on that new set.

- The lightest rebar set from "safe" pool is taken as finial solution

..."

OK, I understand this but my specific problem is not about optimization of reinforcement it is checking a specific user defined amount of reinforcement and trying to understand how the reported values for U and phi-Sn are obtained.

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Message 18 of 29

gwizdzm
Autodesk
Autodesk
Accepted solution

 

Our algorithm is common for almost all RC codes. Typically, codes give limits for maximum strain for concrete and stress-strain relationship for reinforcement steel and for concrete (equivalent rectangular concrete stress distribution can be used too). Algorithm based on this.

 

First, we need algorithm to find point of failure.

For section described in 2D space we can define any line and assume that is neutral axis. For any neutral axis is possible to set strain limit for concrete at the most distant point of section. That state for this neutral axis is failure point (an additional checks may be necessary here if code gives any specific limitation). Strains are linear of course.

In this moment we have neutral axis and strain at each point on section. If we use the rectangular stress distribution, we can find its size at this moment (if we have physical stress-strain relationship for concrete we can find stress at each point of section directly).

gwizdzm_0-1624009438558.png

 

Integrating stresses in the concrete and summing stresses in the rebar give us forces generated in the section (N.sec, My.sec, Mz.sec)

gwizdzm_1-1624009438560.png

This is some point of failure...

 

When we have set of forces (N, My, Mz) we can start use above algorithm to search neutral axis where forces (N.sec, My.sec, Mz.sec) are correlated with forces (N, My, Mz)  by the factor where factor= N.sec/N and factor= My.sec/My and factor=Mz.sec/Mz (it means that ez = My/N = My.sec/N.sec and ey = Mz/N = Mz.sec/N.sec). This is an iterative process and comparison are done with some accuracy. When we found that neutral axis, then if factor is > 1.0 force is in the "safe" space. Frankly speaking if we have linear correlation between changing of acting forces and failure point, we've found finial point on the interactive curve eg. when we analyze section for ACI-318.

In that case distance between acting force and failure point is described by that factor.

gwizdzm_3-1624009438565.png

In the other case (non-linear correlation eg. slender column) we know only that force is in the "safe" space or not.

gwizdzm_4-1624009438575.png

 

 

Message 19 of 29

gwizdzm
Autodesk
Autodesk

About calculation note:

"- the x, y coordinates of the longitudinal steel used in the cross section computations."

This is good idea and it easy to do. I'll add this idea to the list of future implementations. In this moment you can find position on the reinforcement viewer or calculate based on position on reinforcement properties and rebar diameter. But that's is not easy and intuitive way:

gwizdzm_0-1624010705802.png

"- code section references in brackets after any value / line that comes from or checks against a specific code section"

We have code references in the note but only in the part connected with the slender effect:

gwizdzm_1-1624010963884.png

I'll add your suggestion to the list of future implementations.

 

Message 20 of 29

gwizdzm
Autodesk
Autodesk

Now I come back to the question about capacity:
"...trying to understand how the reported values for U and phi-Sn are obtained."

"U" and "phi-Sn" are additional result presented in the calculation note. My colleague Beata @kalczyb  can tell you more about it. She was involved in note modification for ACI.

 

Below I describe you how the phi-Sn/U ratio is calculated. That coefficient is taken directly from calculation algorithm. In Fact it is described on the pictures in the previous answer. We have two situations. First case is pure section (without any manipulation on the acting load) :

lin.png

phi-Sn/U ratio is equal to the "factor" on the picture. In that case we have easy understand graphical interpretation.

For whole column it is more complicated and graphical interpretation is not so clear. Codes give rules how to modify internal forces from structure because of slender, imperfections etc.

nl.png

On the left picture we can see that situation. Acting forces taken from the structure are modified according to slender effect to used in strength calculation. Is easy to see that factor defined just like as above is different for both of them. Additionally, the slender effect are nonlinear to acting forces. It is shown on right picture. Small proportional grow of acting forces makes that we are on failure point. In that situation the "multiplication factor" shown on the picture is called by us "safety factor". We have no easy graphical interpretation in that case. It is calculated iteratively by "virtual" multiplication by factor of the acting forces.

 

gwizdzm_0-1624015684324.png

One more thing. If slenderness (or imperfection - I'm not sure if is it important for ACI) effect are important we can see the modified forces on the list of combination too.