Revit MEP (Piping) cant design pipe, flow = 0

Revit MEP (Piping) cant design pipe, flow = 0

richard_pasler
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Revit MEP (Piping) cant design pipe, flow = 0

richard_pasler
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Hello,

Im working on my bachelors thesis. I want to design some domestic water pipes. 

 

I have done my project. Everything well is connected, no errors. 

Problem is, that (in my opinion) fittings doesnt work. The flow flows from furnising item to closest fitting, than becomes 0l/s and pipe cant desing. System inspector is also not showing. Revit says to check the flows from furnishing items, but they are correct.

 

Anyone pls help? 

Thx. 

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Message 21 of 40

iainsavage
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This part of SV2 has been completely disconnected from the other part.

Remove the caps and rejoin the two parts of the system.

iainsavage_0-1679673110284.png

 

You've capped off the system at the source end - remove that cap.

iainsavage_1-1679673260870.png

This part still seems to be in a loop:

iainsavage_2-1679674107136.png

 

I split the pipe, removed the union fitting which resulted and capped the two ends:

iainsavage_3-1679674254426.png

Flow now propagates all of the way back to the source:

iainsavage_4-1679674310672.png

Pipe sizing now also works BUT it gives errors because the resultant very large pipes and fittings break when there isn't enough space for the larger bends/tees. This will be partly due to your use of Preset connectors rather than Fixture Unit which is resulting in very large flows and a lot of 110mm pipes.

iainsavage_5-1679675200594.png

 

I would again suggest that you use the Fixture Unit method for plumbing systems since it is completely unrealistic to base the design on every fixture discharging at full flow simultaneously.

I've attached the amended file. There are some problems with your other systems as well but I didn't alter them.

Message 22 of 40

richard_pasler
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OMG, I just stare at this model for good 15 minutes you are nearly a magician :D.
I will look into the Ficture unit method, try my best, colsuntate the model in the uni in about 4 days, and update you about the progress. THX A LOT!!
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Message 23 of 40

iainsavage
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@richard_pasler  schrieb:
THX A LOT!!

You are very welcome and post back for more help if you need it.

If you are going to change the families to Fixture Unit method you should read this post first in order to get reasonable resultant flow values:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-mep-forum/incomprehensible-flow-vales-result/m-p/11439555#M8831...

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Message 24 of 40

iainsavage
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....also be aware that the flow rates in the hot water recirculation lines are NOT related to the flow rates or fixture units at the plumbing fixtures.

The purpose of the recirculation line is to offset heatloss from the supply pipes, so the recirculation lines WILL have fixed design flow rates based on a simple heat balance equation:

[heat loss from pipes = mass flow rate * specific heat capacity of water * temperature difference between hot water outlet at water heater and recirculation inlet at water heater].

The temperature difference is usually 5 to 10 C so that the water reaching the taps is still sufficiently warm and water returning to the water heater remains above the legionella proliferation temperature range.

 

Message 25 of 40

richard_pasler
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Im back @iainsavage 😄 I look into your advices and repare the whole model. Model was calculating whole system for cold and hot water. But as you said, it has ridiculously big pipes :D. So I start to do the Fixture Unit method, read the article you send and set all fixture units to the right setting. Result is, that cold water is mostly calculating, but hot is not, and I dont know why. 

Cold water is also 0l/s it some places. (I set yellow filter for it like u did). Also dont know why.

richard_pasler_0-1680088465160.png

 

Reciclutaion water is 0, because is disconnected, I will calculate it in the end like you said so. 

Also, I want to ask, in the end a want to connect the systems together, I read on some forum  thats it is possible with corrrect family. Isnt it? 

THX

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Message 26 of 40

iainsavage
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I had a nightmare witha large hot water system because the recirculation lines were connected into the supply.

Took me hours to separate the systems and repair the damage to my model.

Since then I have kept them completely separate.

There is, I believe, a method which can be used by changing a tee family into a plumbing fixture so that you can connect more than one system together but I've never tried it.

There's a solution somewhere on the forum for that and there's a similar one for connecting sanitary pipes and vent pipes in a similar fashion.

I'll take a look at your new model later on.

Message 27 of 40

richard_pasler
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One more question, is somehow possible to change Revit calculations to another code? Revit is using international plumbing code and code in our country is little bit different. THX

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Message 28 of 40

iainsavage
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There is mention of this in one of the links that I gave you and there are also other posts on the same topic.

Revit only offers the IPC method. The only user controllable choice is whether your system has "predominantly flush valves" or "predominantly flush tanks" - second option gives lower flowrates.

This has been a constant frustration for me since I am in the UK but even some of the US based contributors have queried the use of the IPC because it doesn't meet their needs or their local building codes.

 

The only other options are to create your own calculator addin (if your proficient in C# or Python), or you find a way of adjusting the FUs so that they convert to sensible flowrates to suit your own code (I think there's a post where @HVAC-Novice has done something like that).

I found one addon in the Autodesk store which seems to use the DIN code but I haven't tested it for accuracy/reliability (I assume Autodesk have verified it since it is on their store) but it doesn't seem to be upgraded and only works up to version 2019.

iainsavage_0-1680171843279.png

 

 

Message 29 of 40

richard_pasler
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ahh, ok, yes I already seen this addon, but as you said, its not upgraded. Ok thanks.
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Message 31 of 40

richard_pasler
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I consulted with the UNI proffesor the circulation of water, and they advised me to perform the calculation same as your suggestion and set the number of flow. The cold water is functioning correctly,hot water still not :// still 0l/s.
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Message 32 of 40

iainsavage
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Sorry @richard_pasler this fell of my radar.

I can maybe take a look this evening for you.

Message 33 of 40

richard_pasler
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OK, never mind. THX for your help. 

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Message 34 of 40

iainsavage
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Firstly, many of your plumbing fixtures do not have FUs applied hence the zero flowrate.

iainsavage_0-1681290378831.png

 

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Message 35 of 40

iainsavage
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Some of your plumbing fixtures are disconnecting from the piework because there is not enough room for the bends and reducers etc.

I've corrected this one for example:

iainsavage_0-1681291412593.png

 

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Message 36 of 40

iainsavage
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You've got a cross connection between HWS and the secondary recirculation line here:

iainsavage_0-1681293000721.pngiainsavage_1-1681293056845.png

 

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Message 37 of 40

iainsavage
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The hot water out and cold water in connectors on the water heaters should be Instance, not Type, so that they can vary their values depending on what is connected. They also need to be linked by a formula.

iainsavage_0-1681294516976.png

It doesn't seem to like the two water heaters connected in parallel - I tried changing the connectors to System with 0.5 flow factor but without success.

 

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Message 38 of 40

iainsavage
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Accepted solution

I've uploaded your model with some amendments for you to develop further.

Message 39 of 40

richard_pasler
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I went through your advice once again, and my model finally calculates flows correctly.

There is no need to address water heaters, as this solution is sufficient for the needs of my bachelor's thesis.

Thank you very much for the advice provided; I couldn't have done it without you. Nobody at my uni mastered these REVIT calculations as you did. @iainsavage I consider this as accepted sollution. 🙂 

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Message 40 of 40

iainsavage
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You are very welcome. Good luck with your degree and future career and come back to the forum again if you need any more help.