Allow duplicate sheet numbers

[pieter7]

Right now, we can't have two sheets with the same number in one file. But what if we want to have multiple sets in one project (one for Construction Documentation and one for Filing for example). In a lot of places numbering conventions are strict so we can't just add a prefix or suffix.

I'm proposing we get a warning when there are duplicate sheet numbers, but we can accept the risk (the same as with duplicate type mark values).

We have two projects running now that each have 4 filing sets, one CD set and a few presentation sets. All of them have to have unique numbering, which means that we had to split it up in 5 files. Also, I'd like to number my presentation sheets as 1, 2, 3, ... instead of presC-1, presC-2, ...

[nickYM4B9]

If this was implemented, I would also like to see some more filters set up in the dialog when printing to PDFs.  I could see a very time-consuming mess if you had 4 sheets of A101 - First Floor Plan in your sheet list when you're going to print a PDF and no ability to see which sheet belonged to which set.  

As discussed in one topic on here, the best solution is to offer a Print From Sheet List option that would print and order from a user-created sheet list.  Or another solution would be to implement filters in the print dialog box when selecting sheets, utilizing the same sheet organization the user has set up in the project itself.

[tauber42]

Could you set up a special parameter for sheets, and show that parameter in your titleblock and sheet schedule instead of the built in Sheet Number parameter?

[YarUnderoaker]

tauber

You can not because references of section and fragment work only with Sheet Number system  parameter.

[pieter7]

That's right. You will have to do all view references manually.

[tauber42]

yeah, that's a fair point

[pieter7]

Just a few topics that revolve around this issue:

[url]http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?62390-Duplicate-Sheet-Numbers[/url]

[url]https://www.revitforum.org/architecture-general-revit-questions/33328-have-duplicate-sheet-number-wi...[/url]

[url]https://www.revitforum.org/architecture-general-revit-questions/8304-multiple-drawing-sets.html[/url]

[url]https://www.revitcity.com/forums.php?action=viewthread&thread_id=13152[/url]

[url]https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-architecture-forum/phasing-and-sheet-numbers/td-p/2940388[/url]

[url]http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?146177-Multiple-drawing-sets-in-one-revit-file[/url]

[url]http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?158252-Multiple-Buildings-Multiple-Construction-Docs-Shared-De...[/url]

[url]http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?153575-Multiple-phase-packages-from-one-model-Sheet-naming[/url]

[url]http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?103439-Multi-Submittal-Package-in-one-Revit-File[/url]

[url]https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-architecture-forum/multiple-projects-one-revit-model/td-p/26535...[/url]

[url]https://www.revitcity.com/forums.php?action=viewthread&thread_id=14056[/url]

[mer48]

Don't do it - it will end in confusion.

[pieter7]

@mer48 

I feel like we would be able to manage it. If you fear that it would get too complicated, you can just not have duplicate sheet numbers. 

The idea is that Revit will still warn you when you make duplicate sheet numbers and keep a list of it in the warnings dialog, making it easy to check if a file has duplicate sheet numbers.

Everytime Revit throws up a hardcoded road block like this, the programs feels a little bit more like it's working against you instead of with you. Warning you of duplicate naming is fine, but preventing us from doing something altogether is usually a bridge too far.

[pieter7]

One more important consideration: a lot of offices built their 'real' sheetnumbers using additional parameters (we use prefix and suffix). We do this because sometimes we need to show the prefix/suffix and sometimes we don't.

So our actual sheetnumbers might we different (A-100 and G-100) but Revit still throws up an error because as far as the program is concerned the sheetnumber is just 100 in both scenarios.

[YarUnderoaker]

I think we need two type of sheet numbering:

1) end-to-end numbering without duplication in entire project

2) sheet set numbering without duplication in sheet set and participate in referencing

[jelomb]

Could it be something similar to the 'Title on Sheet' function you have with View Titles?

So that you don't actually call the sheets the same thing in the project browser, but you could change it on the sheet itself?

Or alternately, a parameter that works like view types (i.e., building elevation, interior elevation, etc), but for sheet numbering? So you could set it up with 'Presentation' sheets sorted as a separate type from 'Documentation' or 'Code' sheets?

[pieter7]

@nickYM4B9 You're absolutely right that the printing dialog could use some better sorting/filtering. @SamBerk has made an idea for that: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-ideas/sorting-sheets-when-printing/idi-p/6479291

I'd love to see a search field and have it use the same organization schemes as we create in our project browser. 

If that would be implemented, we could just use parameter to make different sets (CD set, Filing set 1, Filing set 2). In the printing dialog we would see it organized the same way as in the PB, so there would be no confusing.

[lionel.kai]

I agree that in order to implement this, there needs to be some support on the printing end (especially) that would reasonably ensure end-users weren't printing the wrong sheets. Grouping sheets in the project browser can already be taken care of, but it would also probably be good to have some kind of built-in set parameter anyway (because it could then also be shown along with view & sheet numbers in the Reference Other View pull-down).

[codypowell]

Why not make sheets phase based or make it so that they can have a phased component to them? This complete road block is a bit challenging. @YarUnderoaker had a great point of breaking it into two different function types for the various needs of users. Working on a large multiphased project where the client dictates the numbering system we run into huge issues with not being able to have multiples of the same sheets without using unicode characters. 

[JGuptill]

My firm has to submit two different sets: one to the cabling contractor and one for permitting. It would be HUGE to be able to not have to copy the project for the cabling contractor and have to update both sets if something major shifts between permitting and construction, which anyone here knows happens frequently.

I feel that everyone who says "it would be too complicated" or "need to make sure you are printing the correct sheets" is overreacting. AutoCAD lets you have the same sheet numbers and I (and others), manage to print the correct set just fine.

[lionel.kai]

@JGuptill Instead of duplicating the model, just insert an invisible character in the Sheet Number so that Revit thinks it's different. You will want to find a good way to group/separate the sheet sets so that you don't confuse them, though.

[JGuptill]

Hi Lionel,

I actually have tried using an invisible character both as a prefix and a suffix. My issue was I could not find one that worked. I have only thought of looking in CharMap. If you have come across such a character that works, please share with the class 😊

Please be specific so I/we can search the character.

I have already created a parameter I call “Set Type” where I can differentiate between Cable and Telecomm sheets already and have my sheet browser set up to split the two. Either way, it’s great advice, thanks!

[lionel.kai]

Huh. It doesn't quite work the way it used to. It works normally in 2015 (I just checked) but in 2018, if you put it anywhere except at the end it shows as a big space (so putting it at the beginning throws off the centering). However, putting it at the end still works (at least in 2018). Which version are you using?

We use ZWNJ (Zero-Width Non-Joiner): Alt-0157, because with whatever version I tested it in, it was useable for both Dimensions AND Text (and we've been using it for a bunch of other stuff ever since - Grids, Revisions, etc.). The original tip one of my coworkers came across was for Dimensions (if you right-click > "Insert Unicode control character" it will show you the list of invisible characters) - I tried all of them at the time, but maybe now there's a different one that works better?

I guess I'm not that surprised (that it works differently now) - we had issues with it when they changed the Text-handling in 2017: upgrades showed a box in Text, but typing it new seemed to work, though I later realized it's no longer "invisible" - it's a white box. It's nice that we can make leaders without text now, but for upgraded projects (we had a big one go from 2016 to 2018, for example) and our detail library, we have to go through and redo the "blanks".

[JGuptill]

Hey, lionel! It worked!! For v.2018, use the US (Unit Separator)!!! If I use it at the end, as a suffix, it doesn’t shift the sheet number text.



In the images below, I added a magenta line to the telecomm plan sheet and copy/pasted “aligned to same place” and as you can see, the texts line up dead on!

Telecomm Plan Set



Cabling Plan Set



Normally, I would separate these into my Cabling and my Telecomm Sheet sets, but for this instance, I wanted to show proof of concept and how the sheet numbers and titles align perfectly. In this case, the “duplicate” is the “CABLING SITE PLAN”. Now all I have to do is duplicate my Telecomm plans, and create and copy/paste any annotation groups (so when I update one, the other updates as well) 😊 That’s the power of human ingenuity and a community working toward a common goal!

Problem Solved and the solution has been hidden in Revit all this time!

[JGuptill]

Since the pictures did not upload last time, let's try this again:

Hey, lionel! It worked!! For v.2018, use the US (Unit Separator). If I use it at the end, as a suffix, it doesn’t shift the sheet number text.
 

In the images below, I added a magenta line to the telecomm plan sheet and copy/pasted “aligned to same place” and as you can see, the texts line up dead on!

Telecomm Plan Set

Cabling Plan Set

Normally, I would separate these into Cabling or Telecomm Sheet sets, but for this instance, I just wanted to show proof of concept and how the sheet numbers and titles align perfectly. In this case, the “duplicate” is the “CABLING SITE PLAN”. Now all I have to do is duplicate my Telecomm plans, and create and copy/paste any annotation groups (so when I update one, the other updates as well) 😊 That’s the power of human ingenuity and a community working toward a common goal!

Problem Solved and the solution has been hidden in Revit all this time!