Site massing coodinate system

RudyBeuc
Advocate

Site massing coodinate system

RudyBeuc
Advocate
Advocate

 

I have been wresteling with this problem for some time. I do alot of smaller projects. Most of the time a survey with countours does not exist. So I go out to the site with a laser level, take grades, and create a site model with that information using the first floor level as base datum 100 feet or sometimes 0.

 

Then later on mabey I'll find a good benchmark and then have to adjust everything to the new elevation data. Pinning, unpinning the project basepoint, moving everything up and down and so forth. It's a real hassel and I have yet to figure out the real reason why some thing are acting the way they do. It's alot of trial and error, and when it gets right, I don't know how I got there.

 

Please see the attached project file. It's from Revit 2017 but I've experienced the same problems from 2014 on. Go to edit the sites and observe the elevations of the points used to create the sites. They seem to have no relation to the survey point or project base point.

 

What's up? The only narritave that makes sence to me is that there is an invisiable set of coordinates that got thrown off with all of my manuvering.

 

Thanks,

Rudy Beuc

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Mirko.Jurcevic
Collaborator
Collaborator

Hi Rudy!

Unfortunately, you are right. Topography doesn't have any relation to the survey or project base point (at least I was not be able to find one).

What's going on is next: when you create the topography, it's "zero" is at project base point (relative project zero).

But, if you change your Project Base Point (PBP), (you change project relative zero), your topo will stay where it is.

Then, you move it, for example 100m up to stay right where it should be in reality, when you edit it, points of the topography will still have "0" and all of the original point elevation values.

What I usually do is to create topography based on the AutoCAD dwg lines or points on the "correct" altitudes.

 

Hope it helps!

If this solved your issue, please Accept it as Solution help other forum users with similar issues to find answers easily.
  
Mirko Jurcevic


My blog: www.engipedia.com
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loboarch
Autodesk
Autodesk

This video might help. it shows how to set up a project to place toposurface elevation points using sea level elevations.

 

http://help.autodesk.com/view/RVT/2017/ENU/?guid=GUID-B73E0D49-3330-4876-B8BD-7C23B9340626



Jeff Hanson
Principal Content Experience Designer
Revit Help |

RudyBeuc
Advocate
Advocate

Ok, so by that reasoning, if I create a new site massing with points at absolute elevation 0, then the sithe should be in line with the project base point.

 

Please see the attached file "Project1-A". It did not seem to work out that way.

 

 

Thanks,

Rudy Beuc

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RudyBeuc
Advocate
Advocate

Ok, have never used the relocate project tool to change elevtions. Have been moveing the project and survey base points.

 

Why isn't just moving the survey point have the same effect?

 

Thanks,

Rudy Beuc

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Mirko.Jurcevic
Collaborator
Collaborator

Hi, I wrote from head so I probably wrote it wrong.

Here, http://screencast.com/t/cfdPFj0sgar7

I recorded a short video to show you what I was trying to say.

As you can se, movin WILL change topo points height, but changing the UNCLIPPED Project Base Point and/or Survery point will not change the topo points heights.

If this solved your issue, please Accept it as Solution help other forum users with similar issues to find answers easily.
  
Mirko Jurcevic


My blog: www.engipedia.com
Try my Revit add-ins: Autodesk App Store

RDAOU
Mentor
Mentor

@RudyBeuc

 

Moving the Survey Point CLIPPED has the same effect...it would mean basically; indirectly relocating/moving your whole project (including the Revit Plate ie: Start-up Origin together with the Project Base Point) to a point E:??/N:?? from the origin of the WCS 0,0,0. When it is clipped it means it is clipped to the World Coordinates system. and at start-up (new project template) both WCS and Revit Coordinates System are at 0,0,0

 

 

(The benchmark/Survey Point) At this instance - after relocating it clipped

  1. if you select the survey point (which is actually the pin/benchmark) it will read E:0 N:0 ELV:0 (a ridiculous benchmark for the site)
  2. to relocate it to a place more relevant to the project (example: a corner of the plot) you un-clip it from the WCS and place it at the corner of the plot then clip it again

That point identifies where your site is with respect to the E0,N0

 

What you need to watch out for is the project base point ... moving it un-clipped is what causes the mess. And for that reason; using a master file for the site separate from that of the building especially when you have more than 1 building on the plot. ie: you use shared coordinates ...which comes best into play when you start modeling your project before you receive any survey data.

  1. each model will have its own project base point set at some corner of the building and clipped not to worry about for the rest of the project lifecycle
  2. all models have 1 common Benchmark (what is referred to as survey point in Revit) which is shared when you publish to the linked files

 

Project Base Point

When the Project base point is clipped it means that it is clipped to the Revit Plate where you are modeling and start-up origin. When you un-clip it and move it around it implies moving it away from the start-up origin. On small projects this has less significance BUT on large scale projects where the site and/or the elements/buildings on it exceeds 9.9 miles radius/distance between their extent; there is a chance that the project (entirely of partially) falls outside the 20 miles radius from the start-up origin (that's when Revit will prompt you)

 

Un-clipping the base point and moving it is more like telling the builder - instead of measuring from the Finish floor level, measure from 1m above finish floor level...or instead from this corner of the building, from the other/opposite corner. I personally never found a reason to move it un-clipped further than those extents (1-20m from where it originally was - the start-up origin) and that is another reason why not to un-clip it through out the whole project till you are set to fine tune the spot coordinates placed in the project.

 

Changing the elevation

This is the least critical...it can be as easy as

  1. entering the value in the Project Base Point while it is clipped (to move the whole project X meters up or Y meters down)
  2. and entering the same value in the Survey point UNCLIPPED in order not to move the WCS origin...then clip it again

Some leave the Survey point as is for some odd reason; but I find that ridiculous. Project at 2000 m from sea level and benchmark at sea level!!!... elevation has to go in both otherwise the benchmark doesn't make sense

 

 

The other way to this is

  1. Either using Relocate project
  2. OR setting coordinates at a specific point then moving Project Base Point (CLIPPED) to that point

 

The only way to understand this is to really understand the 2 coordinates systems .. That of Revit/Project and the WCS (ie: on the 3D view that would be respectively the Cube which resembles the project & project north and the circular compass which resembles the WCS & True North)

 

 

Sorry I cannot open your file I don't have 2017

YOUTUBE | BIM | COMPUTATIONAL DESIGN | PARAMETRIC DESIGN | GENERATIVE DESIGN | VISUAL PROGRAMMING
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RudyBeuc
Advocate
Advocate

Thanks everyone for thier posts. The discussion was good.

 

Right now, so far as I can figures, the points used to create the site massing are using the hidden internal set of coordinates; not the project base point or survey base point grids.

 

I think unclipping the project base point and moving thing around like I did in earlier projects caused the project base p[oint to be disconnected form the hidden internal set of coordinates, or wcs as  RDAOU calls it. Understanding this is important because I have to fix my project template file.

 

I think I've figured this out, please see the attached file.

 

Thanks agian,

Rudy Beuc

 

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RudyBeuc
Advocate
Advocate

Hey all ...

 

continued digging and found a great AU course...

 

http://au.autodesk.com/au-online/classes-on-demand/class-catalog/2013/revit-for-architects/ab1412#ch...

 

Still think the points used for generating a site massing are tied to the invisable "double secrete" WCS.

 

Thanks,

Rudy Beuc

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RDAOU
Mentor
Mentor
There is no double WCS and no secret ones.
- There is only 1 WCS for this world and it is fixed and it's origin is at 0,0,0 - you only see it when the Survey point is still at its default location as per template
- then there is another variable coordinate system in Revit which is bound to the center of the Revit plate and it's only visible if the project base point has not been moved unclipped.

Once a user starts messing with clipping and unclipping everything; the user gets confused what went where and where it actually was.

- There are 3 types of spot coordinates annotations (SC)
1. To Base Point (this SC the builder use and it reads coord with respect to the Project Base Point)
2. To Survey Point (this SC surveyors use and it reads its coordinates from/to the WCS 0,0,0 and they are used as benchmarks)
3. Relative (this SC reads its coordinates relative to the Startup Origin and using it one can verify if the Project base point has been displaced)

What I think you are confused about is that reading of the spot coordinates you are using and the relevant point of origin...on top of that you might have moved your project base point and survey point multiple times when it was not clipped which added to the confusion.

YOUTUBE | BIM | COMPUTATIONAL DESIGN | PARAMETRIC DESIGN | GENERATIVE DESIGN | VISUAL PROGRAMMING
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loboarch
Autodesk
Autodesk
There is an "origin" internal to Revit and it is not marked in any way. By default the Project Base Point starts at this position, but if moved un-clipped, the Project Basepont become separated from the "origin". You can set it back, by un-clipping the Project Basepoint and right clicking and select "Move to Startup Location".


Jeff Hanson
Principal Content Experience Designer
Revit Help |
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RDAOU
Mentor
Mentor

@loboarch

 

 


@loboarch wrote:
There is an "origin" internal to Revit and it is not marked in any way. By default the Project Base Point starts at this position, but if moved un-clipped, the Project Basepont become separated from the "origin". You can set it back, by un-clipping the Project Basepoint and right clicking and select "Move to Startup Location".

 

 

There is an origin and ONE (ie: the user) can mark it because as long as the Project base point is clipped that origin moves along with the Project base point.

 

  1. When you move the project base point clipped => it moves the whole Revit plate with it INCLUDING PLATE ORIGIN

undefined

 

 

 

Use Relative spot coordinate and check it...I will record a screencast and upload it on from my side too

 

Difference with between relocating the project using Project base point and using the tool Relocate Project is that the latter ignores the status of the clip and moves the plate along anyways

 

EDIT: SCREENCAST - TRACKING REVIT PLATE / INTERNAL ORIGIN

 

 

YOUTUBE | BIM | COMPUTATIONAL DESIGN | PARAMETRIC DESIGN | GENERATIVE DESIGN | VISUAL PROGRAMMING
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RudyBeuc
Advocate
Advocate

Perhaps I haven't been too clear.

 

I think we're in agreement more than it seams.

 

Figuring this out has been a long term process. About two years. Over that time I've been updating my inhouse project template file, and apparently have introduced a mistake. I believe that when wrestling with the elevation of points making up a site massing; that is clipping , unclipping the project base point, and moving things around; caused the project base point to become disconnected from the internal WCS of the file. This problem got embedded in my project template file and has existed in every project since then.

 

Please see the attaches screenshot. The elevation of the point used to create the site has no relationship to the project base point or survey point. I believe the 0 refrences the files internal and hidden coordinate system (or what we are now refreing to as the WCS).

 

My confusion in the past was not realizing there was a hidden internal coordinate system. I thought the survey point represented one system and the project base point represented another. Then in the process of working with sites, I found thses points sitting on an elevation of 0, but 0 in relation to what?

 

Figuring this out shoulldn't have been this hard. From here on out I will be graphically marking that 0,0,0, refrence point (WCS) in my flies. What'll be the most appropriate way of doing that I have yet to figure out. Perhaps a set of pinned work planes.

 

Thanks,

Rudy Beuc

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RDAOU
Mentor
Mentor

@RudyBeuc

 

Best Practice is to mark both
1. the WCS 0,0,0 (ie: at sea level)
2. the Center of the Revit plate (ie: start up point) --- As shown in the above screentcast

 

 

Then you should be able to track both systems (WCS and RCS) as you progress ... When you see the center of the plate markup didn't move along with the Project Base Point ... you will know that you did something wrong ie: you moved PBP unclipped

YOUTUBE | BIM | COMPUTATIONAL DESIGN | PARAMETRIC DESIGN | GENERATIVE DESIGN | VISUAL PROGRAMMING
If you find this reply helpful kindly hit the LIKE BUTTON and if applicable please ACCEPT AS SOLUTION


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We use Yahoo! Japan to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Yahoo! Japan. Ads are based on both Yahoo! Japan data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Yahoo! Japan has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Yahoo! Japan to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Yahoo! Japan Privacy Policy
Naver
We use Naver to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Naver. Ads are based on both Naver data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Naver has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Naver to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Naver Privacy Policy
Quantcast
We use Quantcast to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Quantcast. Ads are based on both Quantcast data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Quantcast has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Quantcast to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Quantcast Privacy Policy
Call Tracking
We use Call Tracking to provide customized phone numbers for our campaigns. This gives you faster access to our agents and helps us more accurately evaluate our performance. We may collect data about your behavior on our sites based on the phone number provided. Call Tracking Privacy Policy
Wunderkind
We use Wunderkind to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Wunderkind. Ads are based on both Wunderkind data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Wunderkind has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Wunderkind to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Wunderkind Privacy Policy
ADC Media
We use ADC Media to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by ADC Media. Ads are based on both ADC Media data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that ADC Media has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to ADC Media to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. ADC Media Privacy Policy
AgrantSEM
We use AgrantSEM to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by AgrantSEM. Ads are based on both AgrantSEM data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that AgrantSEM has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to AgrantSEM to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. AgrantSEM Privacy Policy
Bidtellect
We use Bidtellect to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bidtellect. Ads are based on both Bidtellect data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bidtellect has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bidtellect to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bidtellect Privacy Policy
Bing
We use Bing to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bing. Ads are based on both Bing data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bing has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bing to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bing Privacy Policy
G2Crowd
We use G2Crowd to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by G2Crowd. Ads are based on both G2Crowd data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that G2Crowd has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to G2Crowd to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. G2Crowd Privacy Policy
NMPI Display
We use NMPI Display to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by NMPI Display. Ads are based on both NMPI Display data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that NMPI Display has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to NMPI Display to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. NMPI Display Privacy Policy
VK
We use VK to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by VK. Ads are based on both VK data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that VK has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to VK to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. VK Privacy Policy
Adobe Target
We use Adobe Target to test new features on our sites and customize your experience of these features. To do this, we collect behavioral data while you’re on our sites. This data may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, your IP address or device ID, your Autodesk ID, and others. You may experience a different version of our sites based on feature testing, or view personalized content based on your visitor attributes. Adobe Target Privacy Policy
Google Analytics (Advertising)
We use Google Analytics (Advertising) to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Google Analytics (Advertising). Ads are based on both Google Analytics (Advertising) data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Google Analytics (Advertising) has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Google Analytics (Advertising) to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Google Analytics (Advertising) Privacy Policy
Trendkite
We use Trendkite to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Trendkite. Ads are based on both Trendkite data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Trendkite has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Trendkite to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Trendkite Privacy Policy
Hotjar
We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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