show existing rooms in "show previous and demo" phase

show existing rooms in "show previous and demo" phase

Anonymous
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Message 1 of 172

show existing rooms in "show previous and demo" phase

Anonymous
Not applicable

Can you please address why new rooms show up in lieu of existing rooms when"show previous and demo" are set for the phase filter?  Every single other existing element including doors, walls, windows, etc. show in the "show previous and demo" phase filter with the exception of rooms. Thank you.

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48,969 Views
171 Replies
Replies (171)
Message 81 of 172

MKFreiert
Advocate
Advocate

rooms are treated as different elements when one of those bounding elements changes.  

 

one of those bounding elements is the phase(time functions as a dimension in the model), and is such because it relates to all of the other elements that define it.  when you change the phase, you've changed one of the boundaries of the room.  

 

merely having a parameter visible doesn't mean that you can set that parameter to anything you golly well please.  families and sketches break when you try to set parameters to illogical values.  

 

revit is logical, and thinks through things in an annoyingly cold fashion, in no small part because we don't want stuff to be impossible to build. 

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Message 82 of 172

Base12
Collaborator
Collaborator

Yes, the multiple ways you've dealt with them... but never with room tags.  With fakes, and workarounds.  See how easy it would be if Revit would just let you tag a thing that is already there... just like every. thing. else?

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Message 83 of 172

mastjaso
Advocate
Advocate

@MKFreiert wrote:

rooms are treated as different elements when one of those bounding elements changes.  

  


No they do not. The room object does not change. Use BIM Link and tell me if the GUID changes when you change a bounding element (hint, it doesn't).


@MKFreiert wrote:

 

one of those bounding elements is the phase(time functions as a dimension in the model), and is such because it relates to all of the other elements that define it.  when you change the phase, you've changed one of the boundaries of the room.  


No it does not. Time is not represented in the Revit database in any way or as a "boundary" as you so put it. The only way that time relates to any object in the revit database is through the project's phases and an object's "Phase Created" and "Phase Demolished" properties. A room's bounding box / geometry is in no way related to time. If rooms were to exist through phases, they would simply have to have a bounding box / set of geometry for each phase.


@MKFreiert wrote:

 

merely having a parameter visible doesn't mean that you can set that parameter to anything you golly well please.  families and sketches break when you try to set parameters to illogical values.  

 

revit is logical, and thinks through things in an annoyingly cold fashion, in no small part because we don't want stuff to be impossible to build. 


I don't even know what you're talking about here. I've already explained to you how it can exist in the revit database. And having rooms persist between phases is in no way illogical or impossible to build. 

Seriously, learn how Revit actually functions, as in how the API is laid out, and how the database is structured, before you start making claims that things are impossible or have to be a certain way. You seem to be basing all of your views on how you think it functions, not how it actually does.  

Yes, there are workarounds, but as always, workarounds are ****ty, time consuming and confusing. They'd be completely unnecessary if Autodesk just made rooms behave like everything else. 

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Message 84 of 172

MKFreiert
Advocate
Advocate

 you place rooms as needed in the demo phase and tag them.  not a workaround, no faking, just not a workflow that most people don't use (for a variety of reasons) but one that does let you tag rooms.  go back and actually read my description and explanation of that work flow. 

 

while i like the idea of "show rooms from previous phase" it presents the problem of showing two different room names in two different plans for the same room and phase, which would at a minimum, be confusing if not error inducing.

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Message 85 of 172

MKFreiert
Advocate
Advocate

i think you're misunderstanding this again.  part of this is we're talking past each other in confusion as to model elements, the data representing them, and the conceptual object that they represent. 

 

no, the guid doesn't change, however what constitutes the extents of the room changes.  if i delete a bounding wall i expand the area of the room within that phase.  the room is calculated in 3 dimensions- but it's actually ignoring the 4th.  calculating it in 4 becomes significantly more complex.  that's a change in our conception of the room across our workflow time, but it's a change to the elements contained within the room, all that happen within the same plane in the model.

 

phase created and demolished is time.  from a standpoint of the database, the wall will be there and won't be there depending on how we choose to view it.  it's not dissimilar to Schrodingers cat except that conceptually we know it's there as a data line item.  when we choose what phase a view is set to we're in effect choosing to look at the movie at 45:32 into it.  all of the data is on the DVD, but we're just looking at one particular frame.   in thinking about the "coordinates" of the model elements, phase is just a differently demarcated dimension which we can locate objects in.  

 

different elements have different bits of data attached to them, and we don't want to accept impossible or logically invalid pieces of data.  thats why sketches become invalid when a line within them is adjusted to a 0 length.  several logical layers deep, revit is refusing to make something that can't logically exist, and it warns you it's going to delete your ceiling because the sketch has become invalid.  even though you could set a line length theoretically to zero within the database, revit tells us that is not a valid input.    you're advocating setting a value at a level at something that becomes remarkably complex and could trigger recursive loops.  

 

lets say we have room A and B adjacent. if we delete the wall between, we'll get a warning that we have multiple rooms enclosed, not a terribly complicated calculation.    if the wall between were to be demo'd, revit suddenly needs to decide if A and/or B should be demolished based on the same logical difference, that they are both in the same space.   revit could choose to demolish either, but realistically it should demolish both at that phase change.   now, if we want room B to just expand, suddenly we have two different extents for room b.  one set of data for it in phase 1 and another in phase 2, some elements of which may be shared, or not.  by overriding room B to be demolished later, suddenly we need 2 different complete sets of data for room B, which arguably should be a second GUID.  this comes back to moving an AC unit.  you demo it in one location and the relocated unit gets a new GUID.   if we wanted the adjacent room C to just persist across the phases without any change, the calculation required to "see" the extents of the room will look at each wall, and note that one data point for each wall has changed, specifically the phase that it's present in.  it will then need to recalculate that room, and since every thing in the room changed, we still need a second GUID for the same room in the new phase.  

 

this really is more into the realm of physics logic puzzles than architecture, but i've explained how and why revit could behave how it does (without seeing the actual logical code it's using it's impossible to really know) and why that behavior makes sense, and ensures the model behaves as expected.  Now, there's a herd of things that autodesk has done to fuzz up revit and make things behave in ways that aren't as mathematically accurate, but assigning multiple relationships to the same GUID seems like more problems than it's worth.     -- that said, similar things get worked around people assign the same mark to different walls that have the same structure but different cleanups to accommodate graphical and construction differences that the field only needs to see as gyp wrapping or not.  

 

 

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Message 86 of 172

Anonymous
Not applicable

"my designers "just want it to work" they don't care about the formulas"

 

CAD would "just work" and it would be fine. I miss the days of things just working and looking exactly the way I want. instead of hearing "O, thats impossible" 

 

Revit is crippling architecture and design. I'm very disappointed. 

Message 87 of 172

mastjaso
Advocate
Advocate

I hear you and this issue personally frustrates me greatly. Despite what all the Autodesk apologists claim on here there's no actual reason it couldn't function that way, all it would take is development time that Autodesk feels no need to spend since Revit has a monopoly. It's no different than how after 10 years Revit still can't properly display symbol based wall mounted light fixtures. There's zero reason, it's just gone unnoticed and unaddressed by the Dev team. 

That being said I would completely disagree that Revit is crippling architecture and design. It's still a fantastic tool that is allowing for so many more possibilities than ever before. There's no reason a Revit project should take any longer than a CAD project given the increased possibilities for automation given it's connected and parametric information. 

Message 88 of 172

Anonymous
Not applicable

For the people who know the program inside and out, maybe. But to know it 100% like that, it would take years of just learning it. Every project has its schedule, and that leads to messy shortcuts never before resorted to in CAD. As far as design is concerned, Revit has taken away creativity, limiting my options and making it difficult, if not impossible, to do what I used to be able to in CAD. Not to mention I would be able to do those things in CAD 20x faster and cleaner. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Don't reinvent the wheel. 

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Message 89 of 172

Base12
Collaborator
Collaborator

"Revit apologists", lol, that's awesome!

 

It's taken me over 5-years to learn Revit to a level that has made me faster than the previous time using Arch Desktop... and that's not so bad.  But here's the difference (one of them).  Autocad was designed for the actual program to be flexible, learnable and intuitive.  The answers were found in the same place each time.  Everything it does has a SETVAR that can be adjusted to make it behave to your liking, and if it didn't you could write a LISP or script or whatever to make it happen.  Revit on the other hand is like, 80% great at everything it does, but it falls 20% short on EVERYTHING.  Want to add a leader to something that doesn't already have one? Get ready to blow an entire day researching why it doesn't work the way it should.  If I cumulatively added up all the time spent clicking No to the **** "Do you want to save changes to your text" each time the edit box opens when I try to just move a piece of text, I'd find I lost a week in billable hours. Trying to get simple roofs to join together without holes and gaps? Forget it.  Don't even get me started on stairs and railings.  Why can't I justify the horizontal placement of text in schedules?!  And WTF is the deal with all my text suddenly being bigger than previously defined!?

 

Autodesk (and previous owners of Revit), we appreciate what you've done by bringing BIM to market, but seriously you've been camping on this for over a decade - it's time to make the effort to go that last mile and make a real production tool.

Message 90 of 172

Anonymous
Not applicable

@Base12 wrote:

"Revit apologists", lol, that's awesome!

 

It's taken me over 5-years to learn Revit to a level that has made me faster than the previous time using Arch Desktop... and that's not so bad.  But here's the difference (one of them).  Autocad was designed for the actual program to be flexible, learnable and intuitive.  The answers were found in the same place each time.  Everything it does has a SETVAR that can be adjusted to make it behave to your liking, and if it didn't you could write a LISP or script or whatever to make it happen.  Revit on the other hand is like, 80% great at everything it does, but it falls 20% short on EVERYTHING.  Want to add a leader to something that doesn't already have one? Get ready to blow an entire day researching why it doesn't work the way it should.  If I cumulatively added up all the time spent clicking No to the **** "Do you want to save changes to your text" each time the edit box opens when I try to just move a piece of text, I'd find I lost a week in billable hours. Trying to get simple roofs to join together without holes and gaps? Forget it.  Don't even get me started on stairs and railings.  Why can't I justify the horizontal placement of text in schedules?!  And WTF is the deal with all my text suddenly being bigger than previously defined!?

 

Autodesk (and previous owners of Revit), we appreciate what you've done by bringing BIM to market, but seriously you've been camping on this for over a decade - it's time to make the effort to go that last mile and make a real production tool.


Beautifully put. That's kind of where Archicad comes in, isn't it? I haven't had the pleasure of actually using it, but my company had a lunch and learn on it a few months ago and boy does that program blow Revit out of the water. I'm surprised Autodesk hasn't made a move on it yet, or that Archicad isn't bigger. Either way, you get what I'm saying about Revit holding us hostage from the freedoms CAD gave us. If you're not using Revit you lose clients, they hear BIM and think that's all that matters. 

 

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Message 91 of 172

mastjaso
Advocate
Advocate

Here's the thing, yes, it takes years to learn Revit inside and out if you're starting from scratch. In fact it may not even be entirely possible unless you have a little bit of programming experience. But the fact that Revit is an actual BIM database with linked information about how objects relate to each other and the project makes it far far more powerful in the hands of the right people. You're used to drawing, and if drawing things is all you know I can understand why you'd find Revit limiting. But for a programmer, working with a 3D modelled BIM database vastly simplifies scripting and automation tools and is far more freeing.


And with the right tools it can speed up development time allowing you to actually build a building before it's built in detail so you can foresee problems and hugely reduce CA time. Fundamentally Revit is a more accurate representation of what you're intending to build than CAD ever was or could be. It probably sucks to hear but a lot of what technologists' used to do will be replaced by software, and Revit is a better software platform to build off of than CAD because it contains far more and better connected information. 

 

I completely agree that there's a ton of absolute bull**** in Revit that's still mind boggingly limited, even through the API, but Revit (or a similar competitor if one were ever to arrive) is the future. I will complain bitterly about specific aspects of how Autodesk has implemented their version of BIM software, but no BIM software could be as flexible as CAD was. Fundamentally CAD produces less information, and the info it does is already of a lesser quality than what Revit produces and what a true BIM approach requires. 

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Message 92 of 172

MKFreiert
Advocate
Advocate

It really doesn't take years.  It takes recognizing that Revit is a new tool, with a different workflow, and that different tools do the same job with different workflows.  I was seeing >40% improvements in efficiency, accuracy and information density within 2 months of first touching Revit almost 15 years ago (I did have a great reseller).   I did a LOT of things back then that I've since learned better/different/more efficient ways to accomplish, but we still saw HUGE improvements in our deliverables and work load.

 

You don't expect a CNC router to behave like a table saw, why would you expect a database with a 4D GUI to behave like a vector drawing program?   You also need to spend time learning how the CNC router works, *because it's not a table saw*.   

 

Revit has been demonstrated worldwide to save time and produce more accurate and informed deliverables.  Not everyone sees those benefits, but I've yet to see a firm not save time if they were using their new tool in appropriately.  Revit is NOT the right tool for every practice. Revit is NOT perfect.  It has some serious flaws.  Users not being properly trained, or people not understanding how or why it has certain behaviors however is NOT the tool's fault.  That said, people DO NOT like to be told that user error/ignorance is the problem.   Mauves ovriers ne trovera ja bon hostill.   

 

 

mastjaso, I've explained repeatedly why the behavior you want doesn't work for most users, and/or would be difficult or impossible to implement without changing significantly more useful core functionality, you keep ignoring those explanations.  If we'e ever in the same town, I'll happily meet up over a pint to discuss in person rather than re-re-retype things.

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Message 93 of 172

Base12
Collaborator
Collaborator

I totally agree that the Revit modeling environment runs circles around 2D cad. No question at all.  There remains however no excuse in the world other than apathy and ignorance that after a decade of "development" the Annotation tools and general user-interface remains a complete cluster f*** - and have actually gotten WORSE with the latest [full price] release.  Lastly, as I wrap up my rant, lol, what kind of 3D modeling tool doesn't let you snap to points or obtain distances in 3D space?  Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go spend the next 6-hours trying to make floor subtotals in my building area schedules.  🙂

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Message 94 of 172

mastjaso
Advocate
Advocate

@MKFreiert and I've repeatedly explained to you why I disagree and various ways of working around those issues but the discussion didn't really go anywhere, I think you're right and it's just too difficult to argue abstract complex topics without some pints in hand. 

 

Though I think you and I are in agreeance with most people who really get to know Revit that while it is a seriously flawed software tool (with some truly inexcusable issues), the majority of complaints about it come from users using it improperly. We just disagree about whether room phasing is a user issue or a design flaw. 

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Message 95 of 172

MKFreiert
Advocate
Advocate

I fully blame the UI mess on implementation of the ribbon across Autodesk products.   Sure, it's marginally easier to find some of the commands, at the expense of screen real estate that might be useful for doing crazy things like looking at your design.

 

Digging into how Revit treats interactions between elements, and what those interactions do and impact will help you understand why some things that frustrate some users are actually error correction elements that prevent errors and falsified information that CAD allowed.  It's like a riving knife on a table saw, occasionally annoying, but a really useful piece of equipment if you know why it's there.

 

Now, why can't I program Dynamo with LISP 😜

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Message 96 of 172

MKFreiert
Advocate
Advocate

Side note on ArchiCAD, I've used it occasionally, and find it's behavior to be less of a modeller and more of trying to kludge CAD workflow into BIM.   It's fine, and I've worked with some firms that love it, but they tend to be working on smaller, less complex projects, and not working with consulting engineers.

 

(it is a modeller, it just doesn't behave as much like one, and has more CAD fakeablity built into it, which defeats the purpose of BIM. -- note that you CAN do most of the fakes you probably want in Revit, they just take come family development or ignoring of automated things, and intentionally wasting time that Revit will otherwise save)

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Message 97 of 172

Anonymous
Not applicable

I have to say I love reading some of these "informative" posts; sometimes its therapeutic to see others are having the same problems.  My personal favorites are how people will draft lengthy paragraphs on how something "just can't be done".  Revit is truely a remarkable program for the things that it can do and "interpret". All Autodesk has to do is actively listen to see what designers issues are and work on those solutions.   If you can swing a little black hammer and make a door disappear and wall appear in its place all in one click, an existing room can be "added" or "subtracted" from another.  Click to remove existing wall, "Would you like to add this room to an adjacent room or keep it as its own room", click, done.   

Message 98 of 172

Anonymous
Not applicable
Kudos, exactly my thinking in the original post!
Message 99 of 172

Anonymous
Not applicable

It seems like there people have been talking past one another a bit here.  I don't think that anyone is demanding that existing rooms show up in new construction.  It's a bit annoying that I have to copy and paste rooms from the existing phase to new construction, but it's a pretty quick operation.

 

The problem is and has been how Revit sets up phasing with respect to demolition.  As has been mentioned ad nauseam, Revit's approach to phasing and demolition seems great until you actually want to create a demolition plan with room tags.  If your demolition plan resides in the New Construction phase, then so do your rooms, but go figure, you're demolishing existing stuff (walls, doors, ROOMS, etc.), so you want to show the existing rooms and room tags.  Revit's convoluted "official" work around is to create a room-tag only view that shows the existing rooms and place it over the demo plan on a sheet.  That's horrendously stupid. 

 

Putting demolition in the Existing phase isn't much better, since you end up with "Temporary" graphic overrides and  get into all sorts of graphical issues with how the existing walls and infill elements display (not to mention rooms and room boundaries also get screwed up).

 

I'm just tired of being told to drink the Kool-Aid.  Revit needs to work for us, the designers.  We shouldn't have to contort our workflows to fit into the one Revit-approved way of doing things.

 

Message 100 of 172

Anonymous
Not applicable

"We shouldn't have to contort our workflows to fit into the one Revit-approved way of doing things."

Perfectly said!

 

I have been trying to develop my firm's standard for showing existing rooms in demolition sheets recently. None of the "solutions" seem good. They all seem tacky or convoluted. I don't want to add a phase if only to show room names. I don't want to duplicate every demo view in my project for four different disciplines. I don't want "dummy" room tags. I want a solutions that makes sense within the workflows that Revit already offers. Getting creative can be fun, but it is not supposed to be built into our standard workflows.

 

Please see the link below for the Autodesk-approved method of solving this problem. I do agree this seems to be the most painless way to solve the problem from a BIM perspective. But, I don't like it and I hate having to explain it to every Revit user at my firm.

 

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-products/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2016/EN...

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