Rotate PROJECT NORTH after entering boundary in TRUE NORTH doesn't work

[petebalf]

Hi all,
I have had a strange result after entering a simple rectangular site in True North oriented plan by using the distance and bearings method.
I successfully made the boundary. Therefore a true north plan established. And no need to rotate true north.
Then a test. I went to a project north aligned view, and tried rotating project north.
The result? project north moved across page a bit, did not rotate. Almost as if it moved around the clock 90 degrees still aspected the same way. Meanwhile back on the true north view, it had rotated.
And a test wall I had put within the site had been displaced.

What would be the reason for this happening? Seems nonsensical.
This does not happen if I start in project north and use sketch to draw the boundaries aligned orthogonally to my ideal modelling angle for the house. Then a rotate true north works simply and keeps the wall in place and aligned.

I do find this strange as in a very logical workflow for simple residential projects the following steps would be a good default to setting a site up.

1. Sketch boundaries to title in true north.
2. Then rotate project north from there.

I have my workarounds using detail lines initially, but would love to know why this happens.

cheers

[SteveKStafford]

I use Rotate True North first. If you define the property with a table the values are based on True North being "up" and if your True North and Project North are already the same (stock templates they are) you need to define True North rotation first so those values are based on something Revit "understands".

Using Rotate Project North is a tool apart from site and true north despite the name suggesting otherwise. It was added to Revit many years later and designed to deal with models that were drawn in alignment with a survey (fussy angles). Revit was designed to start at project north, make it easy to "draw" the design. Then use Acquire Coordinates (from survey DWG) or Rotate True North to define that relationship to site once a reliable survey was in hand.

Rotate Project North is equal to you selecting all the 3D model elements and 2D annotation in every view and using the Rotate Tool, rotating it all together; while Rotate True North is a rotation of those elements in a view. Imagine rotating a crop boundary by a specific angle (which is another way to reorient a view to a different alignment for sketching or view purposes).

[ToanDN]

If your view is set to project North and obviously you won't see the model rotated when you rotate project North - North is still up the page.

[petebalf]

Thanks Steve, interesting to see how the development happened. I still feel though there could be others out there who would see creating true north orientation first then a project north rotate would be the logical way.

I just did another test, if I am in true north, and do the boundary by sketch, (not bearings distance table), I can then go to project north view and rotate project north that way. Although it does mean re-aligning the elevation views as they rotate as well. (I would always do this process as the first thing in a project start so building elements aren't really a concern.)

Actually it does beg the question in what situations would you create the site in true north with a bearing table if you intended to model the building on a different orthogonal axis?

Anyway, lots of workarounds are possible.

cheers

pb

[Anonymous]

In my view, this is a glitch.  When we define a site boundary using distance and bearings, it is not possible to accurately rotate PN.  A work-around for this is to redraw the boundary using sketch mode and trace the original boundary.  Delete the original and the PN can be rotated.

[SteveKStafford]

The Revit bias from day one is Project North, all views are preset to that in the stock templates. Start a design with the output paper size/orientation in mind - make it easy to draw.

It's been consistent with my experience that a lot of projects begin without a reliable survey. Even when a survey is available they are often old. The option for creating the boundary via a table is to deal with when a hand drawn survey, or legal deed, is the only thing available, apart from getting a new digital survey done.

The fastest path to site alignment is based on importing a DWG, moving/rotating to align with the building as desired and using Acquire Coordinates. This deals with both the bearing of property lines as the coordinates of the source survey file.

[petebalf]

Yes Tim, that's one way I do it too, if I start with drawing the true north first. From memory, I use detail lines, then after PN is rotated, I then create using site boundary tool by snapping to the detail line.

[petebalf]

Yes Steve, that is when I encounter it, during classes with my students and we supply a title for them to work from. Hence this approach I sometimes take. I have had students say, 'that's illogical'.  Gotta say, I do agree with them, though I see through your description about how and why it's come about. I just explain to them that it is not possible using the inputting table, and show them a workaround. Thanks as always.

[ToanDN]

You can draw the property line based on a table in another file. Then link it in your building file, align it to your building location and acquire coordinates.

[petebalf]

Good idea Toan, but not really suitable for my teaching of student projects in first year starting off. We get into linking later in the year. Will keep it in mind. Thanks.

[SteveKStafford]

Might reconsider the curriculum then? Linking is an essential skill and often is one of the first things anybody actually does on a project whether linking a DWG survey or design sketches. In training work that I do it's part of the first day's scope.