Point Clouds with large (OS) coordinates and Revit.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I am trying to create a Revit model from a Pointcloud exported from ReCap with OS coordinates. As everyone is probably aware this throws up errors as the coordinates are larger than 30000 and graphical problems occur. I am finding it very difficult to draw due to these graphical problems. Can anyone suggest a better way to insert a georeferenced Pointcloud into Revit and not have issues? I tried moving the Project Base Point (and even the Survey Point) to various location, but still the errors occur when the Pointcloud is inserted.

If I were to truncate the coordinates of the Pointcloud, would that make life easier? If so would I do that in ReCap? Futhermore if I worked in Revit with truncated coordinates, how would I then be able to convert everything back to OS to send to the client?

I'm new to Revit (and by no means an expert in ReCap) and can't seem to find the exact solution I'm looking for in various forums/YouTube.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Danny

[Viveka_CD · Accepted solution]

Hi @Anonymous

Welcome to the Autodesk community! Congratulations on making your first post:)

Since your coordinates are larger than 30000 please take at this post HERE for a solution and demo.

Also, see best tips for working with point clouds in Revit.

See this post here for information on Truncating survey coordinates in Recap

You can also try posting to the laser scanning forum HERE

Please mark this response as "Accept as Solution" if it answers your question. Kudos gladly accepted.

Regards,

[Anonymous]

@Viveka_CDThe solution for 'Truncate survey coordinates in Recap' links to a page with dead page as the solution.

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Anonymous

I checked the link and it works fine.

However, I have posted the solution below form the same page:

Truncate survey coordinates in Recap

I want to know if it is possible to truncate the survey coordinates in Recap 360 Pro.

We typically receive laser scan projects in RCP format (internally or externally) in the correct state plane coordinate system.  In order to use this point cloud data in the design interface, it is preferred/required to work with smaller coordinate values.  One of our preferred solutions is to truncate the survey coordinate system (i.e. 1,234,567.89' to 4,567.89').  This makes the conversion back to full survey coordinates, when necessary, much easier.

Our workflow now is to go back to the originator of the RCP file and have them go back through the registration process to redefine the coordinate system.  This usually takes a lot of time and effort, back and forth, to explain exactly what we need.  It would be a lot easier if this is something I could do myself in Recap.

Hope that helps!

Regards,

[Viveka_CD]

I want to know if it is possible to truncate the survey coordinates in Recap 360 Pro.

We typically receive laser scan projects in RCP format (internally or externally) in the correct state plane coordinate system.  In order to use this point cloud data in the design interface, it is preferred/required to work with smaller coordinate values.  One of our preferred solutions is to truncate the survey coordinate system (i.e. 1,234,567.89' to 4,567.89').  This makes the conversion back to full survey coordinates, when necessary, much easier.

Our workflow now is to go back to the originator of the RCP file and have them go back through the registration process to redefine the coordinate system.  This usually takes a lot of time and effort, back and forth, to explain exactly what we need.  It would be a lot easier if this is something I could do myself in Recap.

Hope that helps!

Regards,

[Anonymous]

@Viveka_CDIt's really hard to get clear information on this. Our surveyors sent us a point cloud file that has been truncated, we'd rather have the point cloud fully georeferenced.

The link here is dead:

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/recap/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/ENU/Reality-Capt...

It came from this page:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/recap-forum/truncate-survey-coordinates-in-recap/td-p/7299130

Is truncating really necessary? Like if I insert a CAD with nothing at the 0,0 point, the extent does not matter. Is this possible with Recap point cloud imports as well?

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Anonymous

Thanks for reporting the broken link.

I have asked a recap specialist to look into this one.

Regards,

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Anonymous

Please see this link Revit 20 mile origin limit for imported and model geometry

Regards,

[Anonymous]

Hi @Viveka_CD, unfortunately this does not answer my question. How does this related to point clouds specifically?

For example, when I insert a CAD drawing far far outside the range, it is fine as long as there is nothing at the 0,0 point. Revit only considers physical elements while keeping the origin in mind. Do point clouds work the same, I would assume they do.

In this case, the CAD drawing has evolved beyond the limits of the limitations in the article you sent me. Have point clouds also evolved beyond these problems. Some users would describe the problem more bluntly:

https://www.laserscanningforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=10475&start=10

Why should we have to drop coordinates for Revit, THEY MADE IT WORK for 2014, now it doesn't for 2015/2016, and yet the option remains

Can we stop with the replies of the only answer is drop coordinates because that is not the answer to software designed by a multi billionaire company. And not the answer to the real issue here.

As I said there is no real work for autodesk to fix 100%. They fixed it already for REVIT 2014 update 3., Try it. It works

To truncate the point cloud means we are not truly georeferenced, so we want to avoid this. It seems like Revit has done an inconsistent job at supporting this and an even lesser job at documenting the problems and solutions. Major clarification or remediation are required if I am to trust the opinion of the people who do this for a living.

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Anonymous

A dedicated team is working to resolve this and we already have a few similar issues with versions.

The 'truncate' option is a workaround, and the article referenced the OP's issue: 

Revit 20 mile origin limit for imported and model geometry which discuss that geometry range maximum to 20 miles total distance.

I'm also looking into Revit's functionality for 'point cloud snapping' for you.

Regards,

[Anonymous]

Perfect, thanks Viveka,

We are not too worries about scanning. We just want to know if we can have a georeferenced model with no truncating. Adding a truncation adds a manual element and a potential for error to the model as well as manual work.

I feel like forcing the surveyor to not give us a truncated model, but it would make no sense for us to do this if it is not even possible to do it properly (not truncated). It seems we've received and used non-truncated models before, but it also seems like Autodesk should have a very official answer to this problem surveyors have been dealing with for many years now.

Looking forward to the answer from your team. Thank you!

[dgorsman]

At some point the surveyors have to bow to the fact this isn't a civil/GIS type project.  That means distances and angles are more important than direct coordinates e.g. it's how long the wall is, not what the coordinates are at each end.

They should have very few problems quickly changing the point cloud to line up with your nice, easy project coordinates and orientation, provided you give them the right data.  That means easily located points in space e.g. corners of buildings along with project coordinates.  I've had them do it with as few as 4 such points, up to as many as 8, and in very short time.

[Anonymous]

@dgorsman Actually we'd like to have the proper coordinates, otherwise why have them at all. When someone plops the link, it should just line up perfectly.

It's not too much to ask for Autodesk to just make this work. It seems they fixed it with CAD links, so there is a solution. There should be zero ambiguity as to the location of links and elements in a georeferenced project.

[Anonymous]

@Viveka_CD Any update on this? I'm surprised that Autodesk has such little information on this extremely important workflow. Every project with a point cloud starts like this, this is the foundation.

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Anonymous

I see that there is a similar discussion on this thread

While the team is investigating this, the below workaround is recommended:

Import the .rcp file into a Revit project. For Positioning, select Auto - Center to Center.

I also request you to send us a screencast of what you are experiencing and after you've tried with the auto center to center.

Regards,

[Viveka_CD]

Hi @Anonymous

I see that there is a conversation on this thread:  Recap to Revit - Is it possible to not truncate origin? and a workaround has been suggested.

Were you able to try this workaround? I'm looking forward to your screencast as requested in my previous post, to help us investigate further.

Regards,

[Anonymous]

Hi Viveka,

The workaround is to truncate point, I am looking to not truncate point.

I still require a working point cloud model from my surveyors, they have not provided it yet, so I am unable to send you a test. Part of the problem is that they say it will take them one week of work to do this.

I am surprised that Autodesk does not know if they support this. I will provide a video once I got a proper model, but I'm not sure why this is not know information.

[Viveka_CD]

@Anonymous

Thank you for your response.

I will look forward to your video.

Regards,

[Anonymous]

@Viveka_CD If I ask if Revit supports CAD inserts, will you ask me for a video?

The files are 50 GB and sent to us by USB, so it will take a lot of time before I can provide a video. We are uncertain if this is supported, because Autodesk seems to have no idea how these processes work.

There seems to be a serious lack of knowledge from  Autodesk on georeferencing. Do you not have internal expert assigned to this topic?

When I learned about georeferencing I realized that it was very badly designed and rife for errors and misunderstandings. I called it 'an error prone process to designed to start lawsuits'. With the lack of documentation and understanding on the part of Autodesk, I understand why this process was so badly designed.

I'm sorry, but asking for a video on such a simple question is a bit insulting. You either support full georeference or you don't. I feel like the Autodesk support has no idea about how the product works.

[Viveka_CD]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

Hi Viveka,

The workaround is to truncate point, I am looking to not truncate point.

I still require a working point cloud model from my surveyors, they have not provided it yet, so I am unable to send you a test. Part of the problem is that they say it will take them one week of work to do this.

I am surprised that Autodesk does not know if they support this. I will provide a video once I got a proper model, but I'm not sure why this is not know information.

---

Thank you for your response @Anonymous

We usually ask for journals, files and screencasts to best see what is happening at your end and replicate the issue. Then the dedicated resource investigates further for a resolution or bug report. This is the ongoing process. 

Though we have similar coordinates issues, sometimes its specific to a user/ model. That is another reason we ask for these files to help troubleshoot better.

Sorry to hear you've felt that way, as always I'm glad to help.

Regards,

[Anonymous]

By the way, our tests show that full referencing works in 2019 and later version. I do not know if it does in 2018 and earlier.

You will get an error message saying that the data is too far, but that is misleading and can be ignored.

If you insert CADs that are georefferenced, you must make sure that there is nothing drawn near the origin. This is problematic in Civil3D since there is some sort of ball with geographic information. Revit sees this as a 3D element which makes the files all wobbly when they are aligned to the project.

I would suggest that Autodesk review their georefferencing procedures and product interoperability (AutoCAD, Civil3D and Recap to Revit) . This process is crucial to every project and constitutes the core of our BIM information. It is important that it is done flawlessly, not relying on obscure answers from non-Autodesk employees hidden in multiple forums across the web.

To be clear, there is no need to truncated the data of point clouds despite the scary error messages Revit gives us.