Group is rotated when placed in view

[mpukas]

I'm trying to develop a new standard/practice for myself when using a Survey. Instead of linking an ACAD file, I'm trying to recreate it as a Revit file, so I have more and easier control of the graphics. That's not the topic of discussion for this post, as I'm not sure this practice is worth it. On to the problem: 

I've created groups consisting of text, and some consisting of detail items, not hosted. In the project I have True North view and Project North views. I create the group in the view called SURVEY, which is True North. When I place a group in another view, either True North or Project North, and also the same view that the group was created in, by dragging the group instance from the project browser onto the view, the group comes in rotated to the Project North orientation, not the True North orientation. 

To clarify, when I drag a group I just created in the SURVEY view, which is True North, the group comes in rotated to Project North. 

I've had this happen on other projects when I working on site and landscape plans, and there is a True North and Project North. 

The only way I can come up with to address this is to rotate each group, every time it's placed. This shouldn't even be happening. What am I missing that is causing this? 

[barthbradley]

Not really following. True North and Project North are View orientations only. Kind of like rotating a piece of paper on your desk for a better writing angle.  

[mpukas]

Yes, I understand and agree with what you've said. Which is why I do not understand what is happening in this project, and it's happened before. 

To state is again, when I drag a group from the project browser into a view, the group is rotated. It is not oriented in the same direction as it was created in. 

In the screen shot, the newly placed group is selected, the insertion point is highlight, and the X and Y axis are visible. The white guidelines are True North and Project North. The selected group was placed by dragging it into the view from the project browser. This group was created in this same view, which is True North up. The newly placed group is oriented to Project North. If I select the original group, it will be oriented to True North, as it was created. 

[mpukas]

This is the original group selected, and it's oriented to True North 

[barthbradley]

https://revitclinic.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/03/when-copying-or-inserting-a-detail-element-the-ori...

[mpukas]

I already found that post. It makes sense, but I cannot see how it applies to my condition. There is no detail view or callout. The crop region is Reset, and true to True North. The view orientation is True North. The groups - and this happens with all groups created in this project - are created in the True North view. But when placed are rotated to Project North. 

I've described this to the best of my ability, and I've trouble-sot everything I can possibly find/think of. I'm still missing something. 

[syman2000]

Is there a way to upload the sample file?

[barthbradley]

[mpukas]

I appreciate the example you've posted, and I understand it (already). But that's not what's happening in my project. 

Open the view Survey; select any of the three Groups - they are all created in the Survey which, which is Project North. Zoom into Survey Point / Project Base Point / Origin in the bottom right corner of the lot. Note the insertion point and orientation of any of the three groups is oriented to Project North. 

Place one of the groups from Groups > Detail in this view. Drag it from the Project Browser to the Survey Point. Note the orientation - how is the group you just placed oriented? 

[barthbradley]

what about attaching the detail group to a model group? that model group could simply consist of a small, innocuous model element at the insertion point . If it is an eyesore, hide in the view?  

Help | Place Groups | Autodesk

Help | Create an Attached Detail Group | Autodesk

[Lachlan-JWP · Accepted solution]

This has been something that Revit does when a view has any sort of rotation applied to it. It happens with True North rotated, Project North rotated, crop regions rotated, and views aligned to rotated scope boxes. It gets worse if you use multiple rotations in a project. In the project below I created a detail group in a view aligned to true north which had been rotated by 30°. I then placed a new instance of that group below the original and it came in rotated by 30° (this also happened when I copied an pasted from the same view). When I placed the same group in a view rotated to project north (0°) there was no rotation on placement.

I then rotated project north 45° and kept true north at 30°. When I copied and placed the detail group in the true north view it was rotated 15° (this was because I foolishly rotated true north one way and project north the other 45°-30°=15°).

@mpukasI don't know why it does this, just that does and you'll have to manually re-align detail items when they are placed in rotated views.

[ToanDN]

Steps:

- edit the group, select all text, check Keep Readable box, finish and save the group

- set the view to Project North (if it is not), drag drop the group from Project Browser to the view and place it

- reset the view to Survey North if needed

Also, not sure about your new workflow.  It sounds like an colossal waste of time recreating what you already have for a little added value.  But it is for another discussion.

[barthbradley]

2D vs 3D. Details Groups don't have a spatial relationship. Model Groups do.  Attach the Detail Group to a Model Group. 

[ToanDN]

---

@Lachlan-JWP wrote:

@mpukasI don't know why it does this, just that does and you'll have to manually re-align detail items when they are placed in rotated views.

---

I am not clear how it is a solution.  What does it solve?  Am I missing something?

I am more convinced by @barthbradley approach.

[mpukas]

My issue was True North was rotated. It's messed up in my template over time. I wasn't aware of it, and I need to address it.

I had done Reset Shared Coordinates, prior to posting this question, hoping to reset True North to true north. I thought it had worked the first time, but didn't. When I did it again this time, it worked. Now when the groups are placed, by dragging from project browser, in the True North view that they were created in, they come in oriented correctly.

When the same groups are placed in a Project North view, as a test, they come in oriented to True North, and have to be rotated to Project North. I'm willing to accept that, so long as the groups come in oriented to True North on a True North view.

[barthbradley]

Attach Detail Group to Model Group and the Detail Group will land properly - respecting whatever the View's orientation.   

[mpukas]

@ToanDN 

"Also, not sure about your new workflow.  It sounds like an colossal waste of time recreating what you already have for a little added value.  But it is for another discussion." 

You're not wrong... I'm trying this as an experiment. A colleague on another Revit forum does something similar with surveys. He says it's easier, saves him a lot of time, and gives him greater control over graphics than linking, manipulating, and maintaining an ACAD file. 

So far, the way I've been doing it this time is a colossal waste of time. I thought it would be easy and rather quick, but it's not. Somethings are easy, like lot lines, using lot lines for setbacks & easements with filters, tagging lot lines, dimensions for setbacks and easements, and model lines for roads, walkways, etc. But other things like surveyor symbols for utilities, text, etc. are nightmarish. 

It's already a massive effort, and an absolute PIA, to take an ACAD survey from a surveyor that they did in Civil3D or some other civil program and exported to a DWG for me, and format it as a useful link. 

[ToanDN]

---

@mpukas wrote:

@ToanDN 

"Also, not sure about your new workflow.  It sounds like an colossal waste of time recreating what you already have for a little added value.  But it is for another discussion." 

You're not wrong... I'm trying this as an experiment. A colleague on another Revit forum does something similar with surveys. He says it's easier, saves him a lot of time, and gives him greater control over graphics than linking, manipulating, and maintaining an ACAD file. 

So far, the way I've been doing it this time is a colossal waste of time. I thought it would be easy and rather quick, but it's not. Somethings are easy, like lot lines, using lot lines for setbacks & easements with filters, tagging lot lines, dimensions for setbacks and easements, and model lines for roads, walkways, etc. But other things like surveyor symbols for utilities, text, etc. are nightmarish. 

It's already a massive effort, and an absolute PIA, to take an ACAD survey from a surveyor that they did in Civil3D or some other civil program and exported to a DWG for me, and format it as a useful link. 

---

If it works for your colleague or you then great.  Since you are ready to switch to this discussion then here is my question:

Why do you reproduce Civil work (I don't mean the actual topo or site modeling, but tagging and other annotations)?  Does your civil engineer not provide civil drawings for the contract documents?

[mpukas]

@ToanDN 

"Why do you reproduce Civil work (I don't mean the actual topo or site modeling, but tagging and other annotations)?  Does your civil engineer not provide civil drawings for the contract documents?" 

I always get a survey of some type, usually an ILC or ISP as well as topo, from a surveyor which shows all info related to the property (lot lines, easements, legal descriptions, existing utilities, existing improvements, etc.) and all existing improvements. All of the jurisdictions I work in have the same requirements for architectural site plans to show all of this information, in addition to what is proposed. I use the survey as a background for my site plan(s) (this is fairly typical of residential architects in this area). The architect's site plan shows setbacks, as they are described in the zoning code and not recorded with the lot (usually...). 

If a civil engineer is involved on a project, they only show proposed work, not existing nor anything related to the property.