Changing Entire project Model Level

[craig]

I've searched all posts\forums and still just don't see a simple answer to my problem. I'm sure this should be simpler that I see.

I have a small 2 storey residence which I designed before we had survey levels over the site. It was drawn at a level of 35000 (working in mm). I now have the survey info and the levels are now required to be 65000. So when you draw the toposurface it sits 30000 above the model. I can't just grab the model and move it up 30000 as all annotations, views, etc just go crazy !!! Moving the survey points can change the text of the elevations but the toposurface stays 30000 above the model. I've given shared co-ordinates, etc and it all goes mental.

I'm not looking for a "work around" and just want the whole project to move up so it sits on the toposurface. This seems to be so complex and doesn't matter if you need to adjust 10mm or 10000mm ???  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

BTW - Using Revit 2018

[zemeraloni]

Hi @craig

Did you try to use the relocate project tool?

Manage-project location-Position-relocate project.

another way is to do it by moving the project base point, not sure what is better for your issue..

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-products/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2016/EN...

[barthbradley]

First off, when you say your project's building is at 3500mm  -- 3500mm in relation to what? The Project Base Point? The Survey Point?  Keep in mind, that Elevation reported for Spot Annotations and Datum Levels are RELATIVE from their Base Elevation (Type Parameter) setting.  

That being said, don't (no - never) move your project; move the Toposurface with the Survey Point to the correct Elevation, and then change your Toposurface Spot Elevations' Base Elevations Type Parameter to Survey Point. Typically, Building Levels are relative the Project Base Point, and the PBP represents ground zero. (i.e. the Site's Building Pad on which the home is erected).  Whether or not that ground zero is at sea level or mountain level, makes no difference -- it's still ground zero from where building construction begins.  

...read this PDF; The Theory Relativity by Paul F. Aubin. I think it will help your understanding tremendously. 

http://paulaubin.com/_downloads/2015_RTC/Aubin_Revit_Coordinates_2016.pdf

[mcobb]

Not that it helps but....I feel your pain.  The truth is that Revit has so many ways of doing things I'm not sure there is enough information here to give you a succinct helpful answer.  In the absence of this, a few observations that you may already have explored and/or noticed.  Forgive me if they are old news.  I have struggled to teach people in my office the subtleties of bringing autocad civil information into their project designs, often after the design is somewhat developed, and it can be a difficult time to break for the steep learning curve associated with what winds up being the somewhat specific circumstances of their particular situation.

For single family residences I counsel the following:

Import or link a few versions of the original dwg file into your Revit project file.  Ultimately the generated Revit sites (existing and new) should be fine inside this same file.  I avoid the linking of Revit files.  I know others disagree but with residential work it just hasn't proven to be a problem.  Anyway, it's usually helpful to have something close to the original dwg survey information (trees, etc.) sitting in at least one view.  Since it can clutter other views, bringing this dwg into a dedicated view is often a good way to manage an over abundance of information.  The other dwg file to import or link is a "just topo info" dwg.  This tends to simplify the creation of sites and minimize the length of lists which, let's face it, are abundant in Revit.

If I were smarter the following would not be true:

There is often a third version of the site dwg in the revit file just because boundaries and roads can be important and all the other info is just too much.  It has been easier to just create these three versions of the dwg than to play around with a bunch of visibility settings.  Yes, I can do that but just turning off various imports that can be dedicated to specific views seems the most expedient.  Honestly, I like to lean where I can on my computers horsepower and I don't even link these dwg files if I don't have to.  Importing usually works fine.  Maybe link the most original/complex site dwg since you don't use this on much anyway once the project gets underway.

Get your project base point and survey point turned on in several views so you can keep track of cause and effect.

Keep track of what your level families are referencing.  I believe they can reference either the project base point or the survey point.

Notice that the project basepoint and survey point have a paper clip next to each one and understand how moving either of these in the clipped or unclipped state effects things.  

Lastly, maybe see if are able to get the site model to move without changing project base point or the survey point.  I've found this to be a helpful exercise.  I hope this does not violate some basic tenant of Revit :).  

Finally,  the massaging of views IS the work of Revit!  Amazing things will happen to your model that will ripple through many views without the need to edit them individually.  But the view ITSELF is often where the work is and it would not surprise me if recropping your views was part of the fallout of belatedly introducing good site information.  Turning things on and off, getting 2D levels to represent cleanly to the side of your model,  cropping the edges to remove distracting information.  I personally find this to be the new scullery work.  No amount of templating or dynamo routines seems to eliminate it if one has esthetic standards.

good luck!

[ToanDN]

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@craig wrote:

I have a small 2 storey residence which I designed before we had survey levels over the site. It was drawn at a level of 35000 (working in mm). I now have the survey info and the levels are now required to be 65000. So when you draw the toposurface it sits 30000 above the model. I can't just grab the model and move it up 30000 as all annotations, views, etc just go crazy !!! Moving the survey points can change the text of the elevations but the toposurface stays 30000 above the model. I've given shared co-ordinates, etc and it all goes mental.

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Go to an elevation, turn on Survey Point and Topo, grab them both and move vertically to where you want.  Leave the Project Base Point and your model alone.

[craig]

Thanks for all the replies. Unfortunately they all gave me an insight into just how complex it is without a direct solution. I was beginning to wonder if I was developing a brain anurisum trying to figure it out.........

I managed to get it working in a manor - don;t ask me how though........  Once important thing I did find is that moving the survey and project points has very different effects if they are clipped or not. I feel the clip seems to be the key to it. I'll keep a post on whatI eventually work out. It has to be simpler than I have found though surley ???

[cbcarch · Accepted solution]

Take a look here:

https://revitpure.com/blog/13-tips-to-understand-revit-base-points-and-coordinate-system

[mcobb]

It would not surprise me if ToanDN’s advice was particularly worthy of attention here. He tends to give very good succinct advice that is uncluttered by confusing backstories.

[barthbradley]

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@mcobb wrote:
It would not surprise me if ToanDN’s advice was particularly worthy of attention here. He tends to give very good succinct advice that is uncluttered by confusing backstories.

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Personally, I enjoy explanations with backstories. As long as they are on point, and not cluttered or confusing, they can be very elucidating.  It a fairly common teaching method. 

p.s. I think @barthbradley did a fine job too.  He even got 2 Likes.  Who'd have thunk.   

[ToanDN]

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@mcobb wrote:
It would not surprise me if ToanDN’s advice was particularly worthy of attention here. He tends to give very good succinct advice that is uncluttered by confusing backstories.

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Thanks for the kind words!  But I often than not enjoy reading others' backstories.

[craig]

HUGE KUDOS CLIFF !!!!

Whilst this is particularly a solution, it was the best explanation of the whole Revit Co-ordinate system I have found. It also confirmed my thoughts that using the clip\unclip when playing with co-ordinates seems to be a key as far as I can see. And it outlines how to find that 3rd co-ordinate system that you can't readily see. I feel I've just touched the tip of the ice berg on the subject but Kudos to all that chipped in !!

[barthbradley]

Has anybody vetted these 13 TIPS TO UNDERSTAND REVIT BASE POINTS AND COORDINATE SYSTEM?   It makes several misstatements, to put it politely, and in my opinion, is advocating a nonsensical workflow – to put it politely, again. 

Where it started to “tip” and go off the rails for me was here:      

In most projects, it is a smart move to set the project first level at 100’-0” or 10,000mm. This is an arbitrary value that has no relation to the sea level.  The best practice is to set this value in relation to the Project Base Point.

…and it continued tipping here: 

You should use the Internal Origin to represent sea level 0. Placing the Project Base Point relatively to the Internal Origin should be your first move when starting a project. Else, you won't be able to model the site using the sea level elevation values.

…and it completely tipped over here, here and here:

While unclipping the project base point is the standard procedure before moving it, you should never unclip the Survey Point. If you unclip and move the Survey Point, you will cause a lot of pain, horror and confusion for people working in your model.

The only thing that moving an unclipped survey point will do is to move the icon representation of the survey point, not the survey point itself. There is absolutely no reason to ever make such a move.

If you click a survey point and you see something else than 0,0,0 coordinates, that means someone messed up and decided to move an unclipped survey point. Simply change the values back to 0,0,0.

Just saying: many of these 13 TIPS should come with a disclaimer reading: “BS”.

P.S. The author says: “In most projects, it is a smart move to set the project first level at 100’-0” or 10,000mm”. Not to be a nitpicker, but isn’t 100’-0” equal to 30480mm, and 10,000mm equal to 32.8 feet?

[mcobb]

Yikes. I wasn't referring to anyone else.  I think you and ToanDN both misunderstood what I was saying there.  I wasn't indicting anyone.  I looked at my own advice afterwards and tried to imagine what it would be like trying to get something done.  Wading through everything I had to say could have been more than a cadd person in distress could bear.  As a student of this particular problem, I enjoyed reading the other explanations too.  I just think summary advice that attempts to quickly address a problem that someone is really struggling with can be a real lifeline when someone is struggling to stay on task.  I'm glad to see another approach worked for that person.  I just know the kind of advice ToanDN was offering has been a real boon to me in the past.  

[craig]

Mate take a chill pill on the tips - they are tips. You read everything with a level skepticism on the internet - it;s not all true or gospel. The TIPS (not instructions) gave the best insight I have seen into the concepts of the co-ordinate system of Revit. I'm a 30 year Autocad user so have SOME smarts in the whole CAD\BIM area but that article was the best I found without waffle on the subject in Revit - I believe giving simple conceptual ideas is the best thing to do.

Ragging on the tips, trying to poke holes in the content and calling them BS is not helpful, nor very professional - in my opinion.

[ToanDN]

I think the blog author has a good understanding of Revit coordinates.  I don't agree with several of his Tips but they are not wrong per se, just one's opinion against other's.  The only thing I found odd is the statement about multiple Survey Points, there are multiple Shared Sites but only one can be set as current.  So multiple True North orientations cannot co-exist at any given time.

[barthbradley]

Thanks for trying to advance the conversation, @ToanDN. Unfortunately, my “chill pill” has kicked in and I no longer give a **** about this thread. Too bad; a discussion would have been fun – perhaps even instructional.  

Good luck @craig. 

[cbcarch]

Agreed--perhaps not the "end-all" explanation from Revit Pure.

Maybe this one is more "official":

http://paulaubin.com/_downloads/2015_RTC/Aubin_Revit_Coordinates_2016.pdf