Ceiling Coordination

[CoreyDaun]

This is a question from the other side of the fence - I'm from an MEP firm and am working on finding a solid method of coordinating ceilings and grids. The issue is that we (the electrical engineers) primarily control the layout of the grids through our lighting design while the architect controls the Ceiling Types. So currently, we recreate the ceilings in our model (or copy them over) and then we have Ceiling-Based families (as opposed to face-based) for our other electrical devices (i.e. Fire Alarm) that will follow the ceiling Grid as we adjust it.

It is a little bit of a pain to keep up this coordination, but it makes it so much better for us to have and control the ceiling grids. Does anyone here work with engineers who design the lighting layouts and primarily dictate the arrangement of the ceiling grids? If so, what methods have you used to coordinate this?

As as side note: If we could Copy/Monitor Ceilings, this would be a whole lot easier...

[CoreyDaun]

Does anyone make regular adjustments to their ceiling grid to cater to an electrical engineer's lighting design? And I mean an 'outside' electrical engineer, not an in-house one.

Thanks.

[Alfredo_Medina]

This is my idea, for this scenario.

Considering that.... :

• You want to be able to adjunst the layout  of the ceiling grids, and the architects have agreed on that.
• You don't need control of the ceilings themselves, but just the grid layout.
• Architects need to keep control of the height of the ceiling, and the decision of where ceilings go.
• Ceilings are room bounding and their existence affect the HVAC spaces in the MEP model.
• The default reference type for links is Overlay.
• Ceilings cannot be copy/monitored.

Also, considering that... :

• Ceilings in links can be turned off and overriden with visibilty graphics, by custom or by linked view.
• Ceilings use model model drafting patterns.
• Filled regions can use model drafting patterns, and can be transparent.
• Detail items are visible only in the view where they are placed.
• Lighting fixtures can be placed on workplanes.

Therefore, my proposed solution is this:

• Architects model the ceilings, decide where, and how it goes. They can also create the grid layout to convey the design intention.
• You link the architect's model in your Electrical model.
• From an elevation view, you create a reference that you can use as the workplane for your ceiling items. This can be either one of these 2 options, whatever works best: named reference plane(s), or 1 datum level. This guarantees that if the architects change the height of their ceilings, your stuff updates.
• From your electrical ceiling plan, use Set to set the 'ceiling' workplane that you just created.
• Create a filled region in each room, with a model hatch pattern that matches the ceiling type. Make it transparent. Rotate it to match the architect's rotation.
• Use Manage links to modify the visibility of the architect's model. Use Custom > Custom > until you can turn off the ceilings.
• Now all you see in your Electrical ceiling plan is your layout, made with a transparent filled region.
• Place your fixtures. Move, adjust the pattern of the filled region as required. To move or rotate the whole pattern, you just need to move or rotate one line.

In the architect's office:

• They link in your electrical model. In the ceiling view, they can turn off  their ceilings, or hide them by element, whatever works best. Then, under Manage links, they set your link as "by linked view", meaning that your link will look exactly as it was set up in your Electrical Ceiling view. Now they have the ceiling grid that you adjusted, and the ceiling fixtures. 

[CoreyDaun]

Thanks, Alfredo, that's an idea. However, when a lighting fixture is constrained to the model lines of the hatch, modifying the grid does not honor these constraints, and will require them to be broken. We're aiming to maintain the functionality of the true ceiling grid.

I tested this in RMEP 2012. If you happen to test it and get different results (i.e., elements move with the grid pattern), let me know. Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

This is not quite off-topic, but I wish to relate my experiences. I'm the BIM coordinator at an electrical contractor and regularly receive new architect models to link into my electrical project file. I have been down that road many times where I need to place my light fixtures, speakers, etc. according to a linked model's ceiling. Not being able to copy/monitor ceilings was a major problem, so I stopped relying on the ceiling. The last project had over 50 rooms and 3 separate corridors and I can't tell you how many different ceiling heights there were, but I know using reference planes for ceiling height quickly becomes a congested mess. Instead, I created new level-based families for all the lights, speakers, etc. that I place "in" the ceiling (teach a man to fish...). Now, depending on how quickly I receive information form the architect, I can either reference a PDF with the ceiling heights marked out and change my AFF parameter on the affected devices, or when I receive the new model from the architect I can run through the space with a section view to see where ceilings have changed (it is rare for this architect to actually tell us what ceilings he changed unless it was changed through coordination).

Now for the ceiling grid arrangement, for my job I only need to do an alignment of my lights to the architects lights, but I did try a few things related to what you need. I tried the model hatch pattern filled region which didn't work as you said, but then I skipped the filled region completely and just snapped model lines to the linked ceiling grid, then hide the link ceiling, then aligned and locked my lights to the model lines. Also, the model lines were all dimensioned and locked at 2'. If I pick one line and move in one direction every device and the lines move fine, one direction at a time. Picking 2 perpendicular lines and trying to move both, say east and north, caused constraint issues. I hope this might shed some light.

[Anonymous]

Hi Alfredo,

It looks like you know a lot about this type of situation and you may be able to help me with my related issue.

I work in an office where we have an Arch file and a MEP file that are linked.  We are having issues where the light fixtures and diffusers are not showing on the reflected ceiling plan and require the ceilings to be cut out in those areas. I tried changing the link to "by linked view" and still can't see their fixtures properly.  Any idea of what to do to fix this ?  

[cbcarch]

Our workflow, from the Arch side is:

• We layout the grids, for aesthetic/design reasons that engineers typically don't need/want to control.
• We the insert "placeholder" lights on a workset called Arch-Elec

(We place recessed downlights in gyp ceilings on that workset)

• Engineers use a Reference Plane and face-based (not ceiling based) fixtures to host their lights and ceiling devices.
• Engineers adjust the reference planes if the ceiling heights change, as is often the case.

(I believe that they circuit to our lights using copy/monitor?)

[Anonymous]

okay yes that is the way that it should be, but for some reason our firm
has a lighting designer that works in the electrical engineering dept... so
she is the one doing the lighting layout. Same thing happens with the mech
hvac returns and diffusers -- we are unable to see them unless we cut holes
in our ceiling.

Anything other than copy monitor that would work? I was looking into them
adding a mask plane and symbolic line in each of the families so there was
basically a symbol on our plans and it would also mask the grid at fixture
locations. That is currently how speakers and occupancy sensors are
showing up.

I would just like to have something besides 'copy monitor' that wouldn't
cause more work if things drastically shift -- which they will and are
currently.