Array in-place voids in an in-place component

[JasonLLINDNER]

Can someone explain please WHY array in-place voids in an in-place component never work right?

it either gives an error regarding constraints to a member outside the group or it does array the voids, they go haywire all over the view when the in place component is stretched. I am not looking for the workaround of "use void family"... this is an exercise (weekend homework) for Revit lab at uni. And it is to either make a void array workable and controllable in an in place OR justify why it is not doable if we can't. The full grade goes to option 1 so it must be doable!

I googled a lot and checked several Revit forums with no luck. I find similar questions but none solves it or say why not doable using in place. So if there is anyone who is more of a Revit wizard who can explain it would be awesome and I would be in his or her debt for the rest of this semester 

It's a rectangular extrusion with rectangular cut throughs which should

1. maintain distance of 400mm from all edges

2. Arrayed number adjust to length and width of host rectangle as it gets stretched

[RDAOU]

It is doable; it's just a little bit more of a hassle compared to the more straight forward way of using a void family (which is easier to constrain)

Constrains being mentioned, to do an array of a void in an inplace you need to know and understand what u r constraining and to what you are constraining...voids in inplace components do not behave like solids and for sure not like geometries. If or when you constrain one, go to that pad lock, right click it and select "show related" ... You would be surprised what u actually ended up constraining.

It is doable thou

[JasonLLINDNER]

Thanks for the reply but it is not entirely making sense to me. I get the part that it may be related to constraints. So as you suggested I right click the locks and show related constraints or elements but I'm not sure what it should mean or what am I supposed to observe!

How do I know what is wrong or what I am supposed to do instead!

[Alfredo_Medina]

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@JasonLLINDNER@J wrote:

...... this is an exercise (weekend homework) for Revit lab at uni. And it is to either make a void array workable and controllable in an in place OR justify why it is not doable if we can't. The full grade goes to option 1 so it must be doable!

...I googled a lot and checked several Revit forums with no luck. ...

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Since this is an exercise for your studies at the university, you should post here graphics of your attempts to solve this exercise; something that shows that you are actually trying hard to do the exercise, not just ¨googling a lot". 

[JasonLLINDNER]

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@Alfredo_Medina wrote:

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@JasonLLINDNER@J wrote:

...... this is an exercise (weekend homework) for Revit lab at uni. And it is to either make a void array workable and controllable in an in place OR justify why it is not doable if we can't. The full grade goes to option 1 so it must be doable!

...I googled a lot and checked several Revit forums with no luck. ...

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Since this is an exercise for your studies at the university, you should post here graphics of your attempts to solve this exercise; something that shows that you are actually trying hard to do the exercise, not just ¨googling a lot". 

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@Alfredo_Medina

Thank you for your concern as well as for the reply which you have put so much effort into it. Very constructive 

However; I do have a few questions on your remarks. You mentioned that "Since the question relates to my studies I should post something that shows I'm putting efforts into it"

Q1A: so a student should demonstrate the efforts he put already in order to get a decent reply while a non-student shouldn't?

Q1B: efforts into what exactly? My studies or the attempt to figure out a reasonable reply for the above question (mine)?

Q2: do you actually think that I have dreamt of the error mentioned above? Or I just took a wild guess that straying in place void snaps off the plane it is locked to when it is stretched or flexed as they call it? 

Q3: how would you rate/evaluate the amount of effort from a print screen of the error message? Or do you have a certain criteria for deliverables to be posted in order for you to be sure efforts were made?

Q3: what do you mean "not just Google a lot?" You don't Google a lot when you are not on Bing too?

Q4: is it bad trying to look for an answer elsewhere before resorting to this forum?

Q5: do you really think I haven't given it second thoughts before I posted the question? Second thoughts on the fact that odds one would get cheeky replies from the despicable few 

Last but not least:

Q6: do you have something to say and which is relevant to the original question of this thread? If not kindly keep you words to yourself 

[Alfredo_Medina]

Just post some graphics of what you are trying to do, and tell us where you got stuck. Or post some files. Maybe there is one specific step that we can help you with. That would be a much better learning process for you as a student than simply googling for answers to the problem. 

[Anonymous]

@JasonLLINDNER I think Alfredo is just making sure you are attempting to actually do something.  We belong to another forum and we get lots of requests for someone do the excercise for them.  It just gets old after we keep seeing the same excercise pop up at certain times of the year from multiple people. 

Scary part...some students say they will pay us to do the work for them.  So really they don't learn anything.

So it's nothing against you, it just helps us see where you are at and to give advice how to proceed when you can post pictures or a file for us to see.

[JasonLLINDNER]

Maybe he is not as good as you with phrasing his replies...apologies @Alfredo_Medina

anyhow I didn't dream of the errors mentioned above after all. I actually did try over a 100 times with the same results. And the thing is I can't quit without having a credible answer after all it's this temp professor's style...he gives those weekly home quizzes picked from day to day Revit users' problems and they always turn out to have a solution...and lots of times the solutions he ended up giving I never was able to find anywhere online (but still I thought I'd give it a shot here where most of u guys are experts)

RDAOU Keith Constantin and You were always super helpful on previous times 🙂 did I at anytime ask u to do the exercise for me : p if I did or somehow imply so, then please do accept my apology

so here are some graphics on what has been going on...after RDAOU mentioned the lock showing constraints I noticed the locking behavior mentioned on the last image but not sure what that means or if it is related

[Alfredo_Medina]

Follow this sequence:

Model in place: 

Create reference planes (start and end of the solid wall, distance from left edge of wall to edge left of first void, and distance from end of wall to right edge of last void.

Create a reference plane to control the width of the first void. Such as "W".

Create the first void

Create the array of the void.

Constrain the right edge of the last item of the array to the reference plane that controls the distance from end of wall ro right edge of last void.

Set the number of the array to an instance parameter, such as "N".

Create the solid "wall", constrained to the first and last reference planes.

Create a dimension / parameter to control the length of the solid wall, such as "L".

Create a formula to relate the width, "W", with the number of voids, "N" and the total length of the wall, "L". Example: L = W * (1 + (N * 2))

Use "Cut Geometry", select the solid wall, select a void, and repeat this for all the voids.

That's all. That creates a parametric model in-place with voids. If "N" changes, there will be more voids, and the length of the wall will increase or decrease.

[Alfredo_Medina · Accepted solution]

Illustrations to complement the previous post:

[JasonLLINDNER]

@Alfredo_Medina Thank you for your efforts and nice illustrations but I think you again misunderstood the question!

i never asked for it to be done for me and I wasn't looking for the methodology on how to do it, I already have one very similar to yours 8/10 which was provided with video tutorials at uni! the Question was: Why does the above errors occur when one does the same exercise in any other way differently and even when the constraints are the same used in the right method. Same reference planes same geometries.

Because no one managed to answer it last Wednesday, the question was given out again for a second chance till next Wednesday.

[RDAOU · Accepted solution]

@JasonLLINDNER

What is in the image is correct but you are just missing out on one step.

Referring back to my initial reply...Watch out for what you are constraining and to what you are constraining it. The thing with voids is that when you place them on a solid geometry (in-place) they CUT automatically (That’s what you have in your images I believe; otherwise, the edges of the void would be highlighted in orange when not cutting any geometry). No issues here except that when the void cuts and you try to constrain it, you are in fact constraining the Shape handle of the “Joined Solid Geometry” and NOT that the VOID extrusion itself. This is why the arrayed voids won’t stretch properly and that’s why I asked you to go through the locks and “Show Related” to make sure what you are constraining and to what. (This part is the answer for your riddles; the rest is just additional info and how to fix and/or bypass/avoid those errors)

 

Anyhow, the illustrations above, clever I have to admit, helps you avoid the error issues for the simple reason. He modeled the Voids, Arrayed them and constrained them ALL before the solid geometry came into place. Ie: there is nothing around those voids for them to cut (all highlighted orange if you didn’t notice); hence, no Joined Geometry confusion for Revit. Unfortunately, this is not the case when it comes to In-Place void cut arrays. One usually receives the geometry (In-Place Solid Geometries already placed), then one cuts it. And not vice versa.

The solutions for the above is easy. When you Edit the In-place geometry and place your first Void Extrusion, USE UNCUT GEOMETRY >> THEN LOCK IT to the reference planes. You will notice the tool tips, while locking, read “Void Extrusion: Shape handle” and not “Joined Solid Geometry: Shape Handle” (half the issue is solved)

This isn’t all though. (This would be the solution for the second half of the issue) Now that the extrusion is uncut/not joined to solid and easily locked/constrained to the reference planes,

1. Start your Array
2. Select the Void Extrusion
3. Select first click then Second click at any distance from the first
4. Leave the array 2 Elements only
5. Finish the array placement
6. Select the last (ie: 2nd element)
7. Edit Group
8. Use UNCUT GEOMETRY same as you did for the first before the array. (note: it won’t work if you do it without editing group.)
9. Finish editing group
10. Align and lock second element to the reference planes
11. Now select the Array Parameter (make sure to uncheck the Append to End option) and Add new parameter
12. Now you can CUT geometry >> select Generic Solid then the first and last void extrusions (flex)
13. Once done setting all parameters W/L/Array/Void Dimensions and you finish and exit sketch mode, your void array should stretch perfectly.

I will add the screencast once it is uploaded

[RDAOU · Accepted solution]

Screencast 01 - Modeling In-Place Void first >> Array >> Solid Geometry >> Finish

Screencast 02 - Existing In-Place Geometry  >> Model Void Extrusions >> Array >> Finish (I would recommend this workflow. For 1 basic reason: if you are modeling the both you might as well consider modeling it as 2 or more families and nesting 1 into the other (not because it cannot be done using In-Place but only because it is faster and easier namely when you have pre-modeled elements such as "void cut families" you can use these over and over.

Good luck on your grade...don't forget to come back and give feedback

EDIT: Add revit file for the above screencasts

[JasonLLINDNER]

Hi : o) that joins geometry constraint and the uncut void and solid trick got me the grade 

but im going to mark all solutions because one way or the other they do the trick