Publish coordinates from Revit back to Point cloud.

[robert.klempau]

Hello,

I placed this question also at the Revit Architecture Forum.

The shared coordinate functionality is very powerful in BIM projects.

When using Shared coordinates in your project, you can use the Publish coordinates function to push the shared origin to the linked project. That works for Revit models and DWG files.

Unfortunately, this does not work for Point Clouds.

Question 1: (To Autodesk)

As in Recap you can change the origin and orientation of the coordinate system.

Will there be a shared coordinate functionality in Recap and Revit in the future?  

Question2:

What is the best practice at this moment using the latest Autodesk software to work in a BIM project where shared coordinates are used and several point cloud files.

We want to use the point cloud files in AutoCAD, Revit and Navisworks.

Note: The exact location of the shared coordinate is not a visible point in the Point Cloud File.

[vidanom]

Hi @robert.klempau,

At the moment the only two available options to update the origin in ReCap are:

- Manually update origin article

- Or by adding survey points in the registration tab in ReCap (you would need at least 3 targets for the changes to take effect)

I also saw that you have already posted your suggestions in the ReCap Ideas page so that is a great place to start for any feature request. 

However, I'm not very well aware of all the options that are available for point clouds when it comes to updating the origin in other Autodesk products.

Mitko

[Anonymous]

whats your workflow?

are you positioning the cloud in revit and want to report the position back into recap?

[depps · Accepted solution]

Similar to the last question/response...(and to answer it):

We don't always have the ability to tie into project control when overlaying registered scan data with our models for comparisons and Construction Verification...in those instances, it's an extremely painful process...

We have 2 options:

1) Link in the scan data to Revit and rotate/modify the location of our Revit models to match the scan data, export out to Navisworks or other program for overall federated model compilation. This is very cumbersome as it requires us to essentially modify the location of every single file besides the point cloud...simply because we cannot rotate the point cloud in Revit to match the models and have that translate back to ReCap or export to Navisworks, etc.

2) Use an annotated crosshairs system to create common points between the scan data and the model within Revit, draw x/y/z and rotation angles between those two points to ensure alignment...and notate those rotation values to use within Navisworks when importing the Recap file there...again, a very cumbersome workflow.

Keep in mind, neither of these methods is truly accurate as we are basing the scan location on a series of assumptions...typically structural exterior columns with gut checks along column lines around the project, etc...but no, it's not perfect.

I'd love to hear if anyone has a better solution for accurately aligning a model to a point cloud sans control points.

[sreed]

i have made the same request on this forum and would really appreciate any guidance from the Autodesk team as to how this workflow SHOULD be done.  At the moment, we do exactly the painful (and imprecise) method described by "depps".  What depps didn't mention is that with a large project, this process of reregistering the scans in Recap can take a very long time.

Thanks for any advice,

-Scott

[JeradNJ]

In my workflow for aligning pointclouds, I have found a method that works for our purposes... it is pretty awkward, but it gets the job done.

Directly after Indexing the pointcloud, without making any modifications, I open the RCP in an AutoCAD base file containing the project grids and/or architectural features. Before moving the cloud at all in CAD, I go back to Recap and Resume Registration. Then I add in "dummy" control points. A minimum of 3, and I try to space them out at the far edges of my cloud. When first adding the CP's I make sure to title them uniquely (CP1, CP2, etc) and simply parrot back into the cloud, the location data shown for a control point. Example:

CP1

Recap coordinates

X 11.3000, Y 7.2000, Z 0.9000

User input coordinates

X 11.3000, Y 7.2000, Z 0.9000 (I'm just repeating back into Recap, what it tells me for the location)

I then place the center of a sphere in CAD at the same X,Y,Z locations; thus repeating the CP's created in Recap (also use different layers for the CP's so that way there is no confusion later). Once I have all the CP's I feel I need, I define the cloud and all the spheres as a Group, and proceed to rotate and align the cloud in CAD. Once I am happy that the R (rotation), X, Y, and Z are all set where I want them to be, I simply check on the sphere properties and update the CP data in Recap to show the newly aligned locations. Now when I reload the RCP file back into CAD at 0,0,0 it pops right to the spot I want it to be. This can be especially useful in multi-story projects as generally offsetting the Z's to stack floors in any meaningful way can be a nightmare.

Notes: 1) As I'm in America, I generally think in feet and inches, so I created an Excel file to do all the unit conversions in a more automated fashion. This also allows me to save the data at the very end to a Tab Delimited TXT file, which saves me a little bit of time in the end updating the CP data.

2) This whole process is well beyond what I would like to be doing for alignment, as it is very time consuming and has many opportunities available for human error - which is never a good thing. I have posts elsewhere on this forum discussing ways that this could be better, but until there is a better fix from Autodesk, I hope this can help someone out.

[Zsolt.Varga · Accepted solution]

Hi @robert.klempau,

Thanks for logging this idea on the Revit Ideas Forum. 

I understand your point, missing this feature in Revit. 

In the sake of better findability and to point other users (possibly facing the same challenge) to your idea - here the link to the Idea you had logged: 

Ability to use shared coordinates between Revit and Recap360

I will go ahead and mark this post with the above link to your idea as an "Accepted Solution" - showing the current status of things and encouraging other users to vote for it as well.

I will also mark @depps ´s description of the currently available workflows as an "Accepted Solution" - please, feel free to add or mark other methods as "Solutions" for the current challenge as well - it is OK if we have multiple manual workflows marked as solutions in this thread, until we have more options available in Revit itself. 

Thanks again for your valuable input and your participation in the Revit Ideas discussion!

Best regards,

[sreed]

Hi.  Please DON'T mark as Accepted Solution.  I'm afraid this concept will get shelved if categorized as Solved.  It is not!  All that was suggested was two clunky and very time consuming workarounds - both of which i do routinely and with frustration.  

There has to be a way to either honor the new amended coordinates/rotation of the point cloud moved in Revit in other programs - OR - better yet, be able to report out of Revit the transformation to achieve proper alignment, and bring that into Recap to update the entire project. (hopefully this would not require an entire new process/index in Recap, as the entire point cloud has been moved/rotated in bulk.  No modifications to the registration).

Again, i urge Autodesk to investigate this lacking and necessary feature.  Litterally hours or days for every project can be saved if implemented.

-Scott

[Anonymous]

Agreed.  This is an inherent problem with revit and its inability to report translation and rotation.

The correct way that we have been using, is to get the scan in the right spot before ever bringing it into revit.

This method works for a full scan, but is not possible when we bring in separate exported regions from scans, such as pieces of equipment scanned all at once in a yard and split up into individual rcs files, that have to go to different parts of the building.

Why can every other program report translation, but not revit?

Not sure but it is more of a wishlist revit item and not necessarily a recap issue.

[depps]

Absolutely agreed...I listed the 2 methods I use (and this was a year ago...still doing the same thing) to show how ridiculous it is that these steps are necessary. 

This is definitely NOT solved...a workaround at best. Please let us know if Autodesk is even evaluating this and looking for a solution.

[Zsolt.Varga]

Hi @depps,

I understand the pain this limitation means when working with point clouds in Revit.

Yes, Autodesk knows about this limitation and we want to do more in this regard as well. Just as we want to develop and constantly improve our products in many other aspects and areas as well. 

It is a challenge to balance between all the awesome ideas and important enhancement requests our users wish to see in Revit. Voting for the Idea logged and marked in this forum thread and encouraging other users to do so as well, you can help our development team to prioritize this enhancement request accordingly. 

Thanks again for your understanding and for your valuable participation.

Best regards,

[pmunson322]

Anything new on this? I know there are the few ways mentioned and obviously the best way, or most accurate, is to create an rcp or rcs file, land it in AutoCAD, or Revit and find/move the scan to a happy medium between the scan and the arch background. Then find 3 or more coordinate points by target, sphere, corner, etc. and go back to Recap and punch in those coordinates. It'd be way easier if the arch backgrounds were spot on, but that's next to impossible as we all know. 

I will say this... Recap Pro is a great program and user friendly and although it is now part of the Autodesk " Bundle" rather than a $300 add-on, it still doesn't compare to that of let's say Trimble Realworks. In Realworks you don't even need 3 points to align the scan accurately and set a coordinate. There's an option to pick a point, most of the time it's the corner of a column at the floor elevation, and type in the coordinate of that one location match the arch background and boom 9/10 times it lands it that sweet spot unless the arch background is really out of whack. 

Where do we go to offer or tell Autodesk or add that feature? It's really a simple add. Picking a point in "realview" isn't the same as picking the actual "node" or "point" like in Realworks. Problem is Realworks costs a ton.

[Anonymous]

So here we are over 3 years later and still no update/fix.  I would say this issue has was officially "shelved" as noted above....

[robbe.verhaertFZDEE]

So is there a solution yet?

I have a Revit-model of a renovation of a historic building. Now there is a preserved existing wall. They took a point cloud of this wall and I would like to detect any clashes between the point cloud and a certain wall in the model.
The point cloud has different coordinates as the Revit model. I do have a survey in a dwg though.

Is there a correct workflow nowadays?

[hoffmannstefano]

I solved as follows a similar issue: open a new rvt project, load a link to the points clouds; once you see the points cloud in rvt, create a suitable rvt wall by a rvt family, by using the point cloud as a template.

Once done, close the rvt project containing the created dummy wall, and open your target rvt file: here you link in the new rvt.file, the dummy wall contained in it can be easily hand-moved to proper location to check the clashes you are targeting for

[EldineB]

Hi is there any solution to this issue yet please let me know.