AUTODESK CAD MODEL VIEWING

[andrew_faix]

Hi Inventor land,

The Inventor team recognizes the need for a functional and predictable solution for sharing and communicating your CAD data with your extended team. We’restarting a research project on this topic this year to gather formal data to ascertain your specific needs and help determine where to invest in the short term.

Please reply to this thread and let us know your general concerns and challenges with the viewing solutions we currently provide. E.g:

- How reliant is your process on publishing DWF files from Inventor and using Autodesk Design Review as a viewing solution? What part is Vault playing in this process? 

- Is PDF publishing (2D and or 3D) part of your current or future practice?

- Do any of you use Inventor View to view Inventor native file formats without publishing? What limitations are you experiencing?

- How do your needs vary when sharing designs with internal partners than external?

- Are the viewing tools themselves meeting your needs?

- How do you feel about a cloud-centric viewing solution?

- How do you archive legacy designs? Is a published format (dwf, pdf) part of that archival process?

Thanks in advance for your feedback. We really appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

[Mark.Lancaster]

@andrew_faix

My opinion..

1.  Autodesk needs to drop the DWF aspect.  It never became popular and it should be scrapped and replaced with PDF (2d or 3d) 

2.  I believe the use of 2D and 3D PDF should be the future path.

3.  Another piece of software (Inventor viewer) that has no use.

4.  No input

5.  Some viewing tools are crucial and other things are missing.  For example the A360 Viewing too me is a glorified viewer.  Where's the measurement function?

6.  Cloud solutions are nice and keeps you up to date.  But I know many customers who are not allowed to even venture into the cloud due to security reason.  Yes I know Autodesk has whitepages of information about their security and high security customers they support.  But that doesn't make a difference.  If a company decided no access to cloud..  Nothing is going to change.  Sometimes I think Autodesk forgets about that and leaves a lot of customer without a solution.

7.  No input..

[dgorsman]

We're a consumer of mechanical design files rather than a producer.  We frequently remodel received content in a much simpler format (major envelopes and critical points).  Navisworks (I see that wasn't mentioned...) is used to consolidate everything together, hiding the simplified model and replacing it with the complete one when needed for clash detection.  3D DWF only entered our work process briefly when we had a limited number of Navisworks Simulate licenses, as they could be viewed in Freedom without any intermediate publishing.  3D PDF is only used for very small projects on one client, otherwise all others are in the Navisworks world.

And isn't Design Review dead for all intents and purposes?

Cloud solutions may very well be an option for us as we have many branches in many locations, with some being better at some things than others.  We have clients with offices in different locations as well.  So being able to share data with all of them as needed as transparently as possible can only be a good thing.  To walk into a clients office and not have to worry about what software/versions they have installed (or do not permit to be installed), or having to lug around a laptop, borrow a license, ensure all files are present, etc.  And of course there is the potential use of Revit LIVE/Stingray VR style solutions.

[pball]

We mostly use 2D pdfs for drawings and screen shots to share 3D designs with customers. We very rarely are asked to share in 3D and that is typically done with step files and any 3D files shared are typically for adding to other 3D designs, not sharing a 3D view.

We would use Inventor Viewer in house to share designs during meetings or on a tablet in the shop but the viewer is nearly useless. Inventor Viewer is much slower than using Inventor directly and the inability to change visual reps, positional reps, or change visibility of work planes or individual parts/assemblies makes it hard to see anything in many assemblies. If the viewer was updated with performance increases and being able to view a model in different representations and change visibility the same way Inventor does it would be quite useful.

Our company is not interested in cloud services for CAD at this time.

It's not mentioned in this post but the current mobile viewing solutions are terrible. A mobile app that can open native Inventor files from the local network would be greatly appreciated and I have seen other posts asking for the same.

[mcgyvr]

Whats a DWF? 

^^ Marks answers are good enough for me.. I'll second all those..

I'll add that we use PDF for 2d drawing archive purposes and will be using 3D PDFs for both sharing/archival once you guys get it all fixed..

For now we are simply sharing screen captures (via windows snipping tool) as its the only reliable tool I have.. 

[Curtis_Waguespack]

---

- How reliant is your process on publishing DWF files from Inventor and using Autodesk Design Review as a viewing solution? What part is Vault playing in this process? Using Vault (I think) in order to view and measure in Vault a DWF is needed. If no DWF is present Inventor view is opened, but the user can not pull measurement info in Inventor view. But generating the DWF on check in really, really, really.....really slows things down. We'd prefer not to use the DWF for Vault but be able to measure when viewing from the Vault Viewer.

- Is PDF publishing (2D and or 3D) part of your current or future practice? Yes

- Do any of you use Inventor View to view Inventor native file formats without publishing? What limitations are you experiencing? Yes, see above.

- How do your needs vary when sharing designs with internal partners than external? Internal customers we want to measure, external we want to be able to choose.

- Are the viewing tools themselves meeting your needs? Need to be able to measure and disable measure. Want to be able to create sheet sets (combine multiple PDFs), want to be able to hyperlink from sheet to sheet (so that I can click on a note that says see sheet 12, and it takes me right to sheet 12).

- How do you feel about a cloud-centric viewing solution? We would always want manufacturing to be able to view offline, but are not completely opposed to using a cloud viewer. So basically we'd always want both options.

- How do you archive legacy designs? Is a published format (dwf, pdf) part of that archival process? Published PDFs are the released deliverable. 

---

[3D4Play]

[quote Andrew Faix]

- How reliant is your process on publishing DWF files from Inventor and using Autodesk Design Review as a viewing solution?  What part is Vault playing in this process?

Historically there have always been problems of one sort or another with DWF files. I think it started with measuring tool accuracy, way back when. That issue evolved into the DWF environment being so slow it didn't offer any benefit over the PDF environment, except when delivering a 3D representation of any kind was essential. Creating 2D PDF files has always been painless.

Over the past 12 years I have yet to see an ADR install that worked, much less efficiently. I have logged so many CERs on ADR over the years that there is no possible way I could begin to use it now, or even consider it as even a potentially viable solution moving forward. Yes, this is where - when I hear the words "Autodesk Design Review", - I roll my eyes, and say nothing more.

- Is PDF publishing (2D and or 3D) part of your current or future practice?

Yes. Everyone can open and view a 2D PDF file. I saw my first example of a 3D PDF about 6-7 years ago with some standards documents created in Germany. I don't know what was used to create them, but I remember thinking how awesome it was then to be able to use an application I [most people] already had on my desktop to view a 3D model, and how awesome it is now to finally have this 3D PDF export functionality in Inventor. At that time the company I worked for had all but ditched Adobe for BlueBeam as our default PDF markup software. BlueBEem had 3D PDF interoperability at that time, but only with Solidworks. As I work more with 3D PDF I can echo the file size complaint that everyone else mentions with regard to large models. With small assemblies - say, up to several hundred components - it's not been an issue so far, especially when compared to dumb solid export file size or to the effort to produce a PackNGo of the same model.  See below for necessary or desired enhancements to that capability.

- Do any of you use Inventor View to view Inventor native file formats without publishing?  What limitations are you experiencing?

No. Never have. Never will. (never say 'never'?). As far as I can tell, Inventor view has always been perceived as Autodesk's marketing tool to get non-inventor users introduced to inventor. Internally or externally, I've been happy to provide others with a file format they can view without having to go out and download a separate viewer. 3D PDF works for that very well.

- How do your needs vary when sharing designs with internal partners than external?

For me, there is little difference between internal or external partners in this sense because any of them are likely to need a file for only a limited number of purposes: reviewing (and then usually for markup or comment for design development), or for a submittal/approval. I am not currently in a QMS environment where document control is critical, though I do understand and recognize the importance of such.

- Are the viewing tools themselves meeting your needs?

Autodesk's viewing tools have yet to meet my needs, which I believe are quite basic. PDF meets my needs, so far.

- How do you feel about a cloud-centric viewing solution?

Have yet to be impressed by any solution that can manage a basic internet connection, or the usual ISP (lack of) QoS, which unfortunately most of us have to reckon with at any given time. One example of this is upload speeds always being slower than download speeds...another example is how bandwidth throttling impacts any cloud-centric application.

- How do you archive legacy designs?  Is a published format (dwf, pdf) part of that archival process?

Different solutions for different situations. Yes, one-off designs get archived as native Inventor files with supporting 2D documentation immortalizing any critical design data. Designs that are likely to be reused are carefully archived with appropriately modified iProperties to reflect revisions. I wish I could say that I have worked in a Vault or PLM environment enough to offer relevant feedback, but I can say that I have not worked in that type of environment enough to know how critically important tracking archival designs and changes can be to many folks here.

One thing I can add to everyone else's comments about 3D PDF is that it must respect LOD's too. I recently encountered a situation where I was generating support files for a user manual, and had to generate many separate, and large, 3D PDF files because LOD's weren't supported. I echo similar requests for respect of component color, material, etc, as well as accurate measurement tools.

Thanks for keeping this topic so high on the development task list!

Richard

---

[YannickEnrico]

I don't think I've ever used a DWF file for anything.

I'm not a fan of asking my customer to go and download "this and that viewer" so he can actually see and understand my work.

3D PDF is the way forward, because everyone has a PDF viewer. You'll never see the: "Our IT department doesn't allow us to install anything, so we only have this", because everyone has PDF. 

I'm the only CAD person in my company, so I'm sharing via 2D PDF and 3D pdf, as well as prints. 

I don't think I would use a cloud solution, because I imagine the amount of logins people who should only approve the final product would need. For that PDFs are much easier

[Ray_Feiler]

- How reliant is your process on publishing DWF files from Inventor and using Autodesk Design Review as a viewing solution? What part is Vault playing in this process? 

Up until this year all Inventor 2D drawings were added to our database as DWF. Starting this year we have switched over to PDF for our 2D files. This saves us a step because all 2D file type request we get are ether PDF or DWG.

- Is PDF publishing (2D and or 3D) part of your current or future practice?

Yes

- Do any of you use Inventor View to view Inventor native file formats without publishing? What limitations are you experiencing?

No

- How do your needs vary when sharing designs with internal partners than external?

Internally we use DWF for sharing in progress 3D designs. External request are PDF/DWG for 2D and native/step for 3D.

- Are the viewing tools themselves meeting your needs?

Yes, but they could use improvement.

- How do you feel about a cloud-centric viewing solution?

It might be something we use in the future.

- How do you archive legacy designs? Is a published format (dwf, pdf) part of that archival process?

2D was DWF but now it's PDF. The native files are also archived.

[-niels-]

- How reliant is your process on publishing DWF files from Inventor and using Autodesk Design Review as a viewing solution? What part is Vault playing in this process? 

Since last year we're using Vault and that creates dwf's for viewing automatically, our intent is to use this to get our drawing on the workfloor.

We don't use dwf's in any other way and have no use for design review other than using it to view.

- Is PDF publishing (2D and or 3D) part of your current or future practice?

We publish 2D pdf for external requests.

- Do any of you use Inventor View to view Inventor native file formats without publishing? What limitations are you experiencing?

Before Vault, we had a couple of stations that used Inventor View.

This worked, but it had issues because of the system requirements and the size of the program.

We never had a year where we didn't see issues with displaying thumbnails in windows explorer after installing the viewer.

- How do your needs vary when sharing designs with internal partners than external?

Internally we're still using paper prints currently, but we want to move to viewing from the vault. (design review)

We use pdf's for external sources.

- Are the viewing tools themselves meeting your needs?

No, design review for Vault is limited and doesn't work nice with a 3DConnexion device.

There is no Design review for iOS or Android devices, which limits the type of mobile devices we can employ on the workfloor.

Inventorview had some printing limitations, but luckily we never needed to print often from the viewer. (can't remember the exact issue)

- How do you feel about a cloud-centric viewing solution?

Personally i'm unsure, as for our company; they'd rather not see "confidential" data uploaded to a cloud just to be able to view it.

- How do you archive legacy designs? Is a published format (dwf, pdf) part of that archival process?

As mentioned, we still use paper printouts... which are archived in file cabinets.

Other than that, our inventor data gets backed up on separate servers as does the vault data.

(so native inventor formats and Vault's dwf's are our archive)

Our biggest concerns atm is how to get our digital drawings on the workfloor relatively cheap.

We had thought of using (android) tablets for this because of mobility, but as the design review addin is only available for Windows we are severely limited in the choice of device to use.

If Vault would have used pdf as the format we could use any device.

[jtylerbc]

- How reliant is your process on publishing DWF files from Inventor and using Autodesk Design Review as a viewing solution? What part is Vault playing in this process? 

A few of us at my company occasionally use DWF for reviewing/markup purposes.  It's not even an official part of our processes - just something we sometimes choose to do instead of hardcopy markups, which are still the norm here.  We largely do this with DWF because we like the Design Review markup tools a little better than BlueBeam.  We don't use DWF for general viewing purposes at all. 

- Is PDF publishing (2D and or 3D) part of your current or future practice?

2D PDF is the standard way we view drawings.  We don't use 3D PDF at all, other than occasionally viewing one sent to us by a customer.

- Do any of you use Inventor View to view Inventor native file formats without publishing? What limitations are you experiencing?

We don't currently use it, although I have suggested it a few times as a way to let our fabrication shop staff view 3D models.  It just hasn't gone anywhere yet.  Having used it a bit in the past, I agree with all the limitations listed by others in this thread:  inability to measure, turn off visibility, switch representations (especially View Reps), etc.

- How do your needs vary when sharing designs with internal partners than external?

What we share externally is typically much simpler.  Since we have our own fab shop, most of what we share is just DXF's for cutting plate or sheet metal parts that we can't do ourselves.  When we do use an outside shop, we mostly just provide PDF's (along with the DXF cutting patterns, if applicable).  Many of the shops we deal with aren't up to speed on 3D, so we have no need to share models with them.  One that we work with fairly regularly uses Inventor, so we have sometimes sent them the native Inventor models (via Pack & Go).  Sometimes this has been problematic because we are on different upgrade cycles, and so sometimes we have had to resort to sending them STEP files because we had Inventor files they couldn't open.

- Are the viewing tools themselves meeting your needs?

Not really applicable in our case. 

- How do you feel about a cloud-centric viewing solution?

Cloud doesn't really hold a lot of appeal to us.  All of our branches have access to our company's network (though at varying degrees of performance).  So in a way, we are already doing that on our own, without the need to put our data in someone else's hands.  The only possible advantage I see to cloud for us would be access to files by personnel operating remotely on jobsites.  For the most part they already do this via VPN, or just copy the files locally to their laptop before they leave the office.  If a cloud solution could be faster than our VPN, there might be some limited benefits there over what we currently do.

- How do you archive legacy designs? Is a published format (dwf, pdf) part of that archival process?

 PDF essentially is our archive process.  We preserve PDF versions of all obsolete revisions.  In cases of a major change, we will sometimes also archive a copy of the 3D model (Inventor or AutoCAD).  We don't use Vault or any other CDMS currently, so this is just done manually in a folder on our network drive.  In Inventor's case, we achieve it by using Pack & Go to create a copy, then zipping the folder to prevent Inventor from seeing duplicate file names (as the archive does typically exist within the project's Workspace).

[dgorsman]

I'll add a quick note to my previous post.  We used to run into the "we aren't going to install any additional software" problem with clients and vendors.  It took a bit but eventually we sold *all* of them on the benefits of Navisworks as they started to see what could be done with it.

So just because everyone can look at 3D PDF because they already have something installed doesn't mean that's the only solution that would/should ever be considered.  That's also kinda-sorta where the cloud viewer comes in.  Note that this use of "cloud" is NOT storage as most are thinking, although there would likely be some storage opportunities as the objects would need to be uploaded, likely through a Forge converter.  It would be a no-install viewer operating in a browser.

[cbenner]

@andrew_faix

Currently we share documents internally via the Vault, which means DWF.  DWF is ok, but not perfect, and ADR is in serious need of help.  It's still in the 2013 release!  I haven't had time to work with 3D PDF yet, but with DWF being automatically generated and linked to the model/drawing in Vault, I don't see much use for it.  Now, if the newly revamped Inventor/Vault team decided to auto generate PDF's (2D or 3D) instead of DWF, and these were linked to the model/drawing.... I would be all about that.  PDF is much more readily accepted and shared worldwide. 

The one thing that is most important to me, in whatever direction Adesk goes here, is the ability to markup these visualization files.

Sharing externally is something we are starting to see happening more lately, and DWF is, again< harder to work with.  The end user needs to download ADR to even view it.  I AM beginning to look at something like A360, but I have to admit that at upper levels here, cloud is still something of a dirty word.  I'm trying to change minds, but it's slow going.

I hope this helps, I'd be happy to go into more detail when I have a bit more time.  Thanks for the opportunity to share our insights.

[karthur1]

---

@andrew_faix wrote:

Hi Inventor land,

The Inventor team recognizes the need for a functional and predictable solution for sharing and communicating your CAD data with your extended team. We’restarting a research project on this topic this year to gather formal data to ascertain your specific needs and help determine where to invest in the short term.

Please reply to this thread and let us know your general concerns and challenges with the viewing solutions we currently provide. E.g:

- How reliant is your process on publishing DWF files from Inventor and using Autodesk Design Review as a viewing solution? What part is Vault playing in this process? 

- Is PDF publishing (2D and or 3D) part of your current or future practice?

- Do any of you use Inventor View to view Inventor native file formats without publishing? What limitations are you experiencing?

- How do your needs vary when sharing designs with internal partners than external?

- Are the viewing tools themselves meeting your needs?

- How do you feel about a cloud-centric viewing solution?

- How do you archive legacy designs? Is a published format (dwf, pdf) part of that archival process?

Thanks in advance for your feedback. We really appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

---

---

This is a complex undertaking, so many things to address.  It would be nice to have ONE viewer that would work with all of our CAD data. It should work with idw, ipt, iam and DWG.  The solution needs to have measure and mark-up capabilities.

1. We use Vault, but normally we do not create DWF's of our Inventor files. We don't because, 1. it takes to long to create them when we check in the files (especially large iams). 2. It creates dwfs of everything, i.e. ipts, iams, idws.  We would only want DWFs of the idw. 3. It takes disk space to store them. It just another step in the process, so unless someone specifically requests a DWF, we don't create them. Most of our customers don't have a DWF viewer installed and cant install it (against company policy).  

2. When we need to share a design this is what we are doing now.

3. I use inventor view to view older vaulted versions of idws.  It a good way to have on one screen "Rev B" and a different revision open in Inventor.  Inventor view is used by some of our manufacturing group to review parts or idws. Inventor View is NOT good with large assemblies.

4. Internally we still use paper sometimes, but if we want to send it electronically, we use PDF.  Externally, PDF's are the easiest way.  Creates less questions.

5. Yes, but we have several different ones to use.  We are experimenting with A360 for internal sharing.  It is promising, but there is currently no markup capabilities on the desktop version and it does not work with some of our mobile devices. Not real fond of a cloud based solution.... see below.

6. A problem with a cloud based solution is that the users are not ALWAYS connected to the cloud. And, there is the reliability and security concerns also. I don't like having my files out there somewhere under someone elses control. A throw of a switch and I can't get to them.

7. For archiving we scan the "As-built" prints and save them to PDF.

Just my $.02.

Thanks,

Kirk

[hosford]

Let me start my response with: I never use the DWF file type, not internally or to share externally, I cannot assume the recipient has a viewer and if I include the viewer in the file it will not pass thru e-mail servers.

2D and 3D pdf files are the norm for my sharing of ideas, .dwg for archiving of 2D data. The idea about archiving is the .dwg format will be here forever, I cannot say that about the dwf.

As for the 3D pdf exporting from inventor, why did Autodesk make it so clunky to use and file sizes so bloated?

I wish Autodesk could allow the exporting of view and position selections in the 3D pdf. Saving the rep to a new file is a time consuming method of gaining success. I believe curing this hurtle would also help with other exporting types (.step).

My work path is to save the Inventor assembly to .stp format, then convert to .pdf, this sucks but gives results that are dependable and file sizes that are consistent with the model.

A viewer for IOS and Android for native .ipt , .iam and idw files would be awesome, I would settle for just .ipt in the beginning.

If Autodesk made a PDF viewer that could allow easily making markups, view and position representations they would have a product that non inventors might want to purchase.

[DanSingleton]

 - How reliant is your process on publishing DWF files from Inventor and using Autodesk Design Review as a viewing solution? What part is Vault playing in this process?

We manually controlled DWF publishing/storage for years with AutoCAD. Our ongoing migration from AutoCAD to Inventor/Vault has resulted in a hybrid situation where we manually create DWF files and store them outside the vault on our Network. The hope is that eventually all files can be sent directly from the Vault but it's far easier at this point to create emails then add the networked stored DWFs as attachments. The Vault's version is completely useless if the files are stored in more than one folder, or aren't directly related.

- Is PDF publishing (2D and or 3D) part of your current or future practice?

We could care less about 3D publishing right now. Nice for assembly visualization but don't really help us at all for actually making the components.

- Do any of you use Inventor View to view Inventor native file formats without publishing? What limitations are you experiencing?

No. Not using it.

- How do your needs vary when sharing designs with internal partners than external?

Security needs change. We just supply externals with files. How they view them is up to them. Most hate DWF though and ask for PDFs instead.

- Are the viewing tools themselves meeting your needs?

No. Please make a single, unified, free viewer, that is NOT cloud based/reliant, and works for ALL Autodesk native file formats. Having to try to explain to non-technical personnel that they need to use, and know how to use, multiple viewer interfaces can be a complete nightmare; Autodesk Design Review for DWFs, Autodesk Trueview for AutoCAD DWGs, and Inventor View for everything else. Trueview's the worst viewer ever since it's basically an AutoCAD install minus any editing tools. It's slow and clunky for most users and the interface confuses most of them to no end.

- How do you feel about a cloud-centric viewing solution?

Thanks but no thanks. Autodesk seriously needs to make all the cloud stuff completely optional in your software at the install level.

- How do you archive legacy designs? Is a published format (dwf, pdf) part of that archival process?

We mark the final files as obsolete. Nothing special is published afterwards.

[karthur1]

---

@karthur1 wrote:

---

......

6. A problem with a cloud based solution is that the users are not ALWAYS connected to the cloud. And, there is the reliability and security concerns also. I don't like having my files out there somewhere under someone elses control. A throw of a switch and I can't get to them.

......

---

Perfect case in point......This is the reliability issue I am talking about.  Imagine if all my data was in the cloud and I needed to work on it.  This would be very frustrating.

[3D4Play]

Good stuff. This discussion makes me wonder about the big picture. Flipping the question around in a general manner, specifically to the folks who work for Autodesk. What are your biggest complaints about network, internet, remote access, and cloud-based (anything)? I think it would be extremely useful for us to hear what you think about these same topics, in this open forum. You are, after all, asking us to offer our unabated opinions for your primary benefit. It seems reasonable for us to ask that you share your opinions, too, so we don't feel like innocuous participants in an ocean-sized feeding ground. Do you share the same types of issues we do, or do you enjoy the benefit of a corporate-the-size-of-autodesk's bandwidth that almost none of us can experience? It's an honest question that deserves consideration.

Richard

[asiteur]

- We've quite some clients working with DWF and DXF files to communicate internally between engineering and manufacturing.

I don't find this a very optimal solution, and the Design Review tool isn't very great.

- PDF Publishing happens a lot and isn't very perfect within Inventor, so improvements would be welcome.

- Never used Inventor View

- I really love the A360 / Fusion Team cloud viewer. It has great graphics, is very accessible and provides all the tools you need as a viewer. It is very unpredictable in it's design interpretation however, file conversions often go wrong, hidden features are shown or vv. And uploading assemblies with library parts isn't straightforward. And the meta-data 'Uses, 'used in', drawings, etc. never really work.

And when it comes to security it would be nice if a 'secure share' option would become available. Something that requires authentication.

- Legacy designs trough DWG, PDF's and platform independent auto-generated STEP-files.

[Anonymous]

Please make viewing the drawings fast.  It's not just about viewing an individual file, it's about finding that file.

In my current project I'm working on a facility which has evolved since 1956.  Most (about 4,000) of the plan drawings are available in tiff format since they were scanned from hand drawings and who knows what CAD source.  Using Windows 10 Photos I can flip my way through the files more quickly than I'd be able to flip through the physical drawings.  This is valuable since I have to jump from one engineering discipline to another in order to find what I need.

More recent construction at the facility has drawings as dwg and/ or pdf.  Open a file, wait for it to appear - no that's not what I need, open another .... We're talking 15 minutes to find a drawing vs 15 seconds.  If I need to find 20 drawings that's 5 minutes using tiff files (nothing in a day) vs 5 hours.

Richard