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article about Autodesk Inventor in The Age (Australian newspaper)

43 REPLIES 43
Reply
Message 1 of 44
Anonymous
980 Views, 43 Replies

article about Autodesk Inventor in The Age (Australian newspaper)

Anyone seen this?
Thoughts?
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Platform/Buyers-beware-of-the-fine-print/2005/05/23/1116700623796.html
43 REPLIES 43
Message 2 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Yep ... but anyone know if there's any case law; has it been tested? Hard to
see a jury siding with Autodesk when they put their users in such a
ridiculous and unjustifiable position.
~Larry

wrote in message news:4860006@discussion.autodesk.com...
Anyone seen this?
Thoughts?
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Platform/Buyers-beware-of-the-fine-print/2005/05/23/1116700623796.html
Message 3 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

All I know is that if Our company treated our customers like that, we wouldn't be in business right now.
Message 4 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

With all due respect, if you are going to chide Autodesk, you should
first read the fine print in the Microsoft license agreement.
Dare say, I doubt that Paul is a barrister or lawyer; he should stick
to what he knows how to do or he will find himself with a restraining
order at least.

Troy Grose wrote:

>All I know is that if Our company treated our customers like that, we wouldn't be in business right now.
>
>
Message 5 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I guess I should have stated what I do, and why we would be outa business. We make farm machinery, and deal with farmers. If we gave a list of rules and regulations and all that fine print to a farmer, he would likely laugh in our face and walk out the door, and higher some custom weld shop or just make up something half baked for himself.

I am not "chiding" just Autodesk, but rather all software comanies.
Message 6 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I'm not a barrister either, but from observing cases and even the Campaign
Finance legislation passed by Congress, it seems to me Autodesk is free to
write in any clause in their license agreement they wish, but until there's
case law to support any particular clause it doesn't mean much. Lawyers, I
think, tend to try and cover all eventualities in their legal mumbo-jumbo,
but I doubt Autodesk has any intension of acting on any particular clause
unless they are pretty sure it will stand up to scrutiny in front of a jury,
so until there's case law supporting that stuff, seems more like something
to blow hard over than worry about.
~Larry

"cbliss" wrote in message
news:4860077@discussion.autodesk.com...
With all due respect, if you are going to chide Autodesk, you should
first read the fine print in the Microsoft license agreement.
Dare say, I doubt that Paul is a barrister or lawyer; he should stick
to what he knows how to do or he will find himself with a restraining
order at least.

Troy Grose wrote:

>All I know is that if Our company treated our customers like that, we
>wouldn't be in business right now.
>
>
Message 7 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

> With all due respect, if you are going to chide Autodesk, you should
first read the fine print in the Microsoft license agreement.
Dare say, I doubt that Paul is a barrister or lawyer; he should stick
to what he knows how to do or he will find himself with a restraining
order at least.

-------------------------------

Personally, I think it's time to take one of the last bastions of the
techno-bubble, software vendors, to task over these issues and a few more
if normal market competition can't bring them about. I doubt that some of
the EULA clauses would stand up to legal challenge. Can an audit be
conducted without a court order if the user stands at the door and asks for
one? Is the audit clause antiquated and superflous when hardware license
validation methods are available? Do the worst offenders have a license or
subscription to put at risk? Maybe it's a good thing someone is standing
up and asking questions, flapping contracts in users faces.

I keep thinking I should take a look at Linux anyway... 8~)
Message 8 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Your example is a good one.  If a person stands in the door, it is the
clause in the agreement that provides grounds for the software vendor
to get the court order.  Without it, the software vendor has no
recourse.  Historically, the vendors don't go after people that are
trying to stay within the law.  They do go after people who violate the
agreements or commit fraud.  The software license provides a mechanism
whereby the software vendor can build a case against such fraud.  I
believe the official term is "due diligence"



Typically, the ones that complain the most are the ones who are most
worried about getting caught doing something underhanded.  I make it a
point of reading the agreements.  I try to read them ahead of an
installation if possible.  Clearly, most of us do not have the time to
read them, let alone understand them but I do believe they are a
necessary evil to protect the intellectual property of the people who
make the software.



I wonder how many web sites Paul has signed up to without reading the
fine print.  There are several sites I have just walked away from
because I was not willing to accept their terms.  If a large company
doesn't like the terms and conditions, they typically negotiate with
the vendor and make adjustments in addendums.  This is common practice
but is beyond the resources of a small company or single user.  I have
not found the same level of hostility between legal departments that
exists in Paul's article.  Before jumping to conclusions, I would like
to see the facts in the case.  Are their any cases where the clauses in
the contracts resulted in a company's or individuals rights being
violated?  I don't know.  Are there cases where the clauses resulted in
perpetrators being brought to justice?  Yes.



So, is Paul trying to make a case or is he just trying to stir things
up.  I would not attempt such an endeavor without spending significant
time with a contract law lawyer and I can ill afford the cost of that. 
As I think about it,  I would probably approach the vendors legal
department for clarification before proceeding at all.



Jeff Howard wrote:



With all due respect, if you are going to chide Autodesk, you should


first read the fine print in the Microsoft license agreement.
Dare say, I doubt that Paul is a barrister or lawyer; he should stick
to what he knows how to do or he will find himself with a restraining
order at least.

-------------------------------

Personally, I think it's time to take one of the last bastions of the
techno-bubble, software vendors, to task over these issues and a few more
if normal market competition can't bring them about. I doubt that some of
the EULA clauses would stand up to legal challenge. Can an audit be
conducted without a court order if the user stands at the door and asks for
one? Is the audit clause antiquated and superflous when hardware license
validation methods are available? Do the worst offenders have a license or
subscription to put at risk? Maybe it's a good thing someone is standing
up and asking questions, flapping contracts in users faces.

I keep thinking I should take a look at Linux anyway... 8~)


Message 9 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

The vendor has to comit to civil procedings or be able to provide enough
evidience to the local DA or Attorney General to get them to file
criminal charges before any kind of court order can be issued. Ain't no
vending machines...

Q: Hi, we're here to audit your company acording to the EULA you never
read or signed.

A: Go away. Slam!

EULA's are basically worth the electrons they're printed on. -Bill


cbliss wrote:
> Your example is a good one. If a person stands in the door, it is the
> clause in the agreement that provides grounds for the software vendor to
> get the court order.
Message 10 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Nice spelling...

Wm.J.Townsend wrote:
> The vendor has to comit to civil procedings or be able to provide enough
> evidience to the local DA or Attorney General to get them to file
> criminal charges before any kind of court order can be issued. Ain't no
> vending machines...
Message 11 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


 

 

While I agree that a lot of this stuff is in
here to protect our purchase in the software, I also wonder why all this stuff
is being targeted in EULA. Surley the vast majority of the abusers do not have
legal copies of the software anyway, so putting something in the EULA when the
whole system you are installing is illegal anyway seems irrelevant.

 

What worries me is the fact that Autodesk seem to
be punishing its legal users more and more with policys, pricing,
subscription agreements etc when the "Bad" guys dont have any of these
anyway?

 

just my NZ $0.02

 

Brian
Message 12 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


But the people that use the software illegally, have to "agree" during
install.  If they are caught, then it is a lot easier to throw the book
at them since the ELUA is practically a book.



You think the bad guys don't get caught?  Look at the Autodesk Annual
Report and see if you can find the contribution from the Anti-Piracy
group.



Brian Corbin (INV9 SP3) wrote:


 

 

While I agree that a lot of this
stuff is in here to protect our purchase in the software, I also wonder
why all this stuff is being targeted in EULA. Surley the vast majority
of the abusers do not have legal copies of the software anyway, so
putting something in the EULA when the whole system you are installing
is illegal anyway seems irrelevant.

 

What worries me is the fact that
Autodesk seem to be punishing its legal users more and more with
policys, pricing, subscription agreements etc when the "Bad" guys dont
have any of these anyway?

 

just my NZ $0.02

 

Brian



Message 13 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Clarification: I said the article was about Inventor, but it does not mention Inventor (and the accompanying image doesn' t look like my version of Inventor). It says "Autodesk CAD software", perhaps it's another (I don't know).
Message 14 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Normal legal users, subscribers, loyal customers,
or whatever you call'em don't have much to worry about, I wouldn't think.
Autodesk doesn't go after it's customers, it goes after non customers or phony
customers try'n to get over on'em. Actually heard Carol Barts say she
didn't care if granny gave a copy of the software to sonny, she was interested
in engineering firms, et al, buy one seat for 25 engineers and such (as well as
the real pirates like you see sell'n programs via spam). Actually though, while
I'm sure there probably are some firms don't have licenses for all their
engineers/designers, never actually worked for one nor have I heard anyone
claiming a company they worked for was doing it.

~Larry


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

But the people that use the software illegally,
have to "agree" during install.  If they are caught, then it is a lot
easier to throw the book at them since the ELUA is practically a
book.

You think the bad guys don't get caught?  Look at the
Autodesk Annual Report and see if you can find the contribution from the
Anti-Piracy group.

Brian Corbin (INV9 SP3) wrote:


 

 

While I agree that a lot of this stuff is
in here to protect our purchase in the software, I also wonder why all this
stuff is being targeted in EULA. Surley the vast majority of the abusers do
not have legal copies of the software anyway, so putting something in the
EULA when the whole system you are installing is illegal anyway seems
irrelevant.

 

What worries me is the fact that Autodesk seem
to be punishing its legal users more and more with policys, pricing,
subscription agreements etc when the "Bad" guys dont have any of these
anyway?

 

just my NZ $0.02

 


size=2>Brian
Message 15 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Just to throw a thingy into the whacha'ma call it.

The UK's just introduce Freedom of Information legislation - about B#@@#y time - and have had Data Protection legislation for even
longer.

National laws will take precedence over a EULA

No doubt the bad guys have figured this out and will use this legislation to 'slam the door' in the faces of the anti-piracy guys
whilst they're cleaning their machines of pirated bytes.

http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/ for more info


--
Duncan
"Humour ... is one man shouting gibberish in the face of authority, and proving by fabricated insanity that nothing could be as mad
as what passes for ordinary living."
(Terence 'Spike' Milligan K.B.E., 1918-2002)
www.autodesk.co.uk/inventorjobs





"Larry Caldwell" wrote in message news:4860343@discussion.autodesk.com...
Normal legal users, subscribers, loyal customers, or whatever you call'em don't have much to worry about, I wouldn't think. Autodesk
doesn't go after it's customers, it goes after non customers or phony customers try'n to get over on'em. Actually heard Carol Barts
say she didn't care if granny gave a copy of the software to sonny, she was interested in engineering firms, et al, buy one seat for
25 engineers and such (as well as the real pirates like you see sell'n programs via spam). Actually though, while I'm sure there
probably are some firms don't have licenses for all their engineers/designers, never actually worked for one nor have I heard anyone
claiming a company they worked for was doing it.
~Larry
"cbliss" wrote in message news:4860282@discussion.autodesk.com...
But the people that use the software illegally, have to "agree" during install. If they are caught, then it is a lot easier to
throw the book at them since the ELUA is practically a book.

You think the bad guys don't get caught? Look at the Autodesk Annual Report and see if you can find the contribution from the
Anti-Piracy group.

Brian Corbin (INV9 SP3) wrote:


While I agree that a lot of this stuff is in here to protect our purchase in the software, I also wonder why all this stuff is
being targeted in EULA. Surley the vast majority of the abusers do not have legal copies of the software anyway, so putting
something in the EULA when the whole system you are installing is illegal anyway seems irrelevant.

What worries me is the fact that Autodesk seem to be punishing its legal users more and more with policys, pricing, subscription
agreements etc when the "Bad" guys dont have any of these anyway?

just my NZ $0.02

Brian
Message 16 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Exactly....


--
Sean Dotson
RND Automation & Engineering

href="http://www.mcadforums.com">www.mcadforums.com

 

 


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
The
vendor has to comit to civil procedings or be able to provide enough

evidience to the local DA or Attorney General to get them to file

criminal charges before any kind of court order can be issued. Ain't no

vending machines...

Q: Hi, we're here to audit your company
acording to the EULA you never
read or signed.

A: Go away.
Slam!

EULA's are basically worth the electrons they're printed
on.  -Bill


@cbliss wrote:
> Your example is a good
one.  If a person stands in the door
, it is the
> clause in
the agreement that provides grounds for the software vendor to
> get
the court order.
Message 17 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

The reality is that software piracy affects more than just Autodesk or
Microsoft. They are an easy target to get pissed off with because of their
licensing schemes because they are large corporations. However, there are
literally hundreds of VARS that are directly affected by piracy. As a Var, I
have seen literally dozens of situations of software piracy. It is a messy
situation and difficult to prove. As well, Piracy also affects honest
manufacturers. If you discovered that you strongest competitor who has been
constantly undercutting your pricing has been stealing their software and
competing unfairly, you would be pissed off. I hate the new licensing
procedures as much as the next guy, they are at best an inconvenience.
However, they will eventually level the playing field.



"Duncan Anderson" wrote in
message news:4860348@discussion.autodesk.com...
Just to throw a thingy into the whacha'ma call it.

The UK's just introduce Freedom of Information legislation - about B#@@#y
time - and have had Data Protection legislation for even
longer.

National laws will take precedence over a EULA

No doubt the bad guys have figured this out and will use this legislation to
'slam the door' in the faces of the anti-piracy guys
whilst they're cleaning their machines of pirated bytes.

http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/ for more info


--
Duncan
"Humour ... is one man shouting gibberish in the face of authority, and
proving by fabricated insanity that nothing could be as mad
as what passes for ordinary living."
(Terence 'Spike' Milligan K.B.E., 1918-2002)
www.autodesk.co.uk/inventorjobs





"Larry Caldwell" wrote in message
news:4860343@discussion.autodesk.com...
Normal legal users, subscribers, loyal customers, or whatever you call'em
don't have much to worry about, I wouldn't think. Autodesk
doesn't go after it's customers, it goes after non customers or phony
customers try'n to get over on'em. Actually heard Carol Barts
say she didn't care if granny gave a copy of the software to sonny, she was
interested in engineering firms, et al, buy one seat for
25 engineers and such (as well as the real pirates like you see sell'n
programs via spam). Actually though, while I'm sure there
probably are some firms don't have licenses for all their
engineers/designers, never actually worked for one nor have I heard anyone
claiming a company they worked for was doing it.
~Larry
"cbliss" wrote in message
news:4860282@discussion.autodesk.com...
But the people that use the software illegally, have to "agree" during
install. If they are caught, then it is a lot easier to
throw the book at them since the ELUA is practically a book.

You think the bad guys don't get caught? Look at the Autodesk Annual
Report and see if you can find the contribution from the
Anti-Piracy group.

Brian Corbin (INV9 SP3) wrote:


While I agree that a lot of this stuff is in here to protect our
purchase in the software, I also wonder why all this stuff is
being targeted in EULA. Surley the vast majority of the abusers do not have
legal copies of the software anyway, so putting
something in the EULA when the whole system you are installing is illegal
anyway seems irrelevant.

What worries me is the fact that Autodesk seem to be punishing its legal
users more and more with policys, pricing, subscription
agreements etc when the "Bad" guys dont have any of these anyway?

just my NZ $0.02

Brian
Message 18 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

After reading this post I went and read the article.
I feel this guys has no real clue as the what he is talking about.

He says:

"This practice must stop; Autodesk and its dealers should be forced to reveal the conditions of the agreements if they continue to ignore the obvious."

You have the option to read the agreement at install, what more would he have them do. He says that he tried to talk to a dealer about the agreement and they would not. Well it is their business to sell Autodesk products so why would they participate in an article like this. Let a reporter go to a Chevy dealer and start asking about a massive recall and see if they do not get the same response.

Autodesk has to try to get everything they can to close every loop hole they can into this agreement to protect their property. If you have ever talked to someone that has been in a divorce and /or custody situation you would know how important it is to get it in writing. Even if they Autodesk never uses some of these clauses, they probably would never have a chance to if they were not there. I agree that they probably have no meaning and would be hard if not impossible to enforce but so is the task of protecting the "intellectual" property from being stolen.

Really the only people who this should be bothering are the ones that need to worry.

The article mentions that Autodesk is considering a response. I would like to read that one also.
Message 19 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I understand and appreciate the need for Protection of Intellectual
Property, however much (most?) of the EULA appears to have no bearing on
PoIP. It is intended to diminish the worth of what I've purchased, to
exclude uses that I would normally consider to be within my "right of
ownership" (of the license to use).

Is that ridiculous Upgrade clause ("you must destroy all copies of the
Previous Version, including any copies ... within sixty days of acquiring
the New Version") still in the EULA.

This (the EULA) is sick; patterned after legal systems which make everyone
a lawbreaker. I don't think the real intent is lost on anyone, is it?
Message 20 of 44
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Note that the author is the same guy who has posted the same things on this
user group and put up a $10k IV vs. AutoCAD challenge. It think he might
hold a grudge...

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