Applying frame member end treatments to intersecting members?

[Kerry.McInnes]

just wondering if anyone knows of a way to apply end treatments to interesting members like the capture I attached? Notch doesn't

 

work because it cant differentiate between the 2 intersections of the member, so the only way I know of to do it now is to go down to the part level and extrude a cut feature which is very time consuming. Thanks 

[leowarren34]

Hi @Kerry.McInnes,

Can you upload your file and I (or someone else) will take a look?

[Kerry.McInnes]

This is a sample of the return bends I encounter a lot with handrails. Im not sure if IO need to attach all the assembly files or not, hopefully I uploaded the files correctly 

[Kerry.McInnes]

Hopefully this file works for you

[CGBenner]

@Kerry.McInnes 

The best way to get an assembly and all of the needed files like this, is with Pack & Go, under Files\Save As.  Send it to a Zip file and then on our end we should have everything we need to look at your assembly.  Thanks!

[Kerry.McInnes]

Thanks. Try this one

[CGBenner]

@Kerry.McInnes 

Ok,... I have your file open, so here is the next big question.  What is the desired end result?  You want to apply end treatments.  Which end treatments, and to which piece?  Do you want the vertical piece to remain intact, and cut the horizontal pipe around it?... or vice versa?

[Kerry.McInnes]

Thats where Im running into the issue. This is just a sample standard return bend on a handrail which I do alot of, I would like to be able to apply a notch on the vertical posts to fit around the top rail, I would also like to apply a notch on the return bend where it comes into contact with the posts. Everytime I apply the notch end treatment, it cant differentiate between the 2 intersections. The only way ive found to do this so far is to go to the part file and do extrude cuts but in larger assemblies it i very time consuming. 

[CGBenner]

@Kerry.McInnes 

Ok, thanks for the clarification.  I can see what you are running into.  If I change the design just a bit so that the two horizontal rails inside of the vertical rails are separate pieces, and the end rounds are separate,... the notches seem to work much better.

[Kerry.McInnes]

Yeah, I know I could do that but from a fabrication stand point it make more sense to leave it as one piece. I guess theres really no good way to do it within the frame generator tools themselves. Thanks for your help

[cadman777]

Kerry,

I'm curious why you would not make the mid rail on the RH side of the post a separate part?
I've done plenty of railings over the years and even when the guys used benders and not elbows on the p-returns, they wanted the correct lengths at the termination points. That means the top rail would be one part up to where it terminates into the post on the LH side.

Is there some kind of machine that bends the whole length of the pipe run and you guys cut it afterwards?

Just curious is all ...

[Kerry.McInnes]

We usually notch the pipe before we even bend it. Less welding, but we have it down pretty good. There are instances though where the top run is too long and we have to join 2 pieces together, but if we can we will make them with with less welds. It also takes more time removing weld and polishing for profiling the pipe to its original condition. 

[cadman777]

I hear ya. I did work for stainless platforms and railings, and they were very picky about how the drawings looked to reduce shop-work.

Back to the coping ... Considering that the post is usually the same OD or larger OD than the mid railing, then when you notch the pipe, you really have a cut-off situation, b/c notching is irrelevant on same OD pipes. IOW, your notch OD will cut the pipe into 2 pieces under any circumstances. So why not show the two pieces as 2 separate parts? Check out the attached simple dataset.

What I typically do when using 1 1/2" pipe is, cut the pipe back 1/2" from the c.l. of the perpendicular pipe, and then notch based on that c.l. (got that tip from someone in here a long time ago). That saves material as well as time grinding on the coped edge (most of the fabricators I know use hole saws or similar to make circular notches) as well as makes the weld cleaner. So you end up getting the correct length as well as a nice cope. Different story if you CNC cut all pipes. They can miter the coped edge as part of the CNC process. Saves grinding and makes a nice clean weld prep. But then you have to make all your part end treatments totally correct, or else you're back to the manual weld prep in the shop.

The only thing Inventor can't do (which it SHOULD do) is cope the edge like it's flattenable sheetmetal: normal to the OD surface (as weld prep). See attached example (it's 1 1/4" pipe instead of 1 1/2"). B/c Inventor doesn't do that, it forces me to make a derived part to make a WrapPattern of the end treatment, which the shops want when the connections are at non-perpendicular angles (like stairs railings), or for CNC cutting/prep. See attached part file. I haven't found any easy and simple way to do this using the FrameGenerator. Railings is about the only thing I use the FG for, b/c it's so limited in functionality.

Incidentally, I NEVER use 'Merge' on FG parts, for the reason you discovered. Like I said, it's VERY limited in BASIC functionality. Apparently, it still is.