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trouble shelling or thickening a complex object

19 REPLIES 19
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Message 1 of 20
Anonymous
2803 Views, 19 Replies

trouble shelling or thickening a complex object

I am having no luck creating a shell of this complex seahorse sculpt.  What is the best way to do this.  I am attempting at making a 1mm shell on the outside of this object in order to create a press mold for a modeling compound.  If I have to use another program that is cool with me too... I just cannot find any efficient way of doing this function.

Attached is an open body brep model of the object.

Please help!

Thanks,

Zach Kline

19 REPLIES 19
Message 2 of 20
TrippyLighting
in reply to: Anonymous

Good luck with that!

 

Your object is constructed from T-Splines that where converted into BReps and there hacked up and stitched in the Patch environment. That results in very complex trimmed NURBS surfaces with all sorts broken edges and undesirable curvature.

 

Another program won't help you here. I just tried this with another very powerful (and more expensive) software and it did not work there either. As expected 😉

 

You'll have to diet this object (unstitch) and manually offset and trim individual surface patches if you really need exactly 1mm.

Perhaps you can try to thicken just the main objects and then combine the smaller details with it. This will likely need a little experimentation.

 

In general if you have to use the word "complex" and "shell" in one sentence then that already indicates the problem.


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Message 3 of 20
Anonymous
in reply to: TrippyLighting

Thanks for your swift reply.  I DO know enough about 3D software to understand why the shell and thicken functions don't work.  I was hoping for guidance as to how to approach a sculpt like this in the future.  I do not know of any other way to sculpt this type of model without T-splines, and T-splines are not so great for adding consistent thickness.  If the goal is to create a mold for dough...I've seen some pretty complex dough molds on the market...what do you suppose these people did to create those molds?

Message 4 of 20
danolson1
in reply to: Anonymous

I had this exact same problem. I ended up splitting my model into simpler faces, offsetting each face, and then re-stitching things together. It was a pain. The shell command seems very fragile.

 

If you convert your model into a mesh, you might be able to use a tool like meshmixer. I found that this was easier, but it smoothed over some of the sharp edges in my model.

 

-Dan

Message 5 of 20
TrippyLighting
in reply to: danolson1

@danolson1 I've looked at your model and the problem you are encountering might result in the same error message but the root cause is likely a different one.

However, going through the timeline of your model I am having difficulties finding where you ran into trouble shelling or what object this was related too.

 


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Message 6 of 20
TrippyLighting
in reply to: Anonymous


@Anonymous wrote:

 If the goal is to create a mold for dough...I've seen some pretty complex dough molds on the market...what do you suppose these people did to create those molds?


I have no idea what these people do, but a number of things come to mind. I personally doubt that modeling dough moulds is a market lucrative enough to yield using a multi thousand dollar CAD system, so they likely use a  Sub-D modeler in combination with real sculpting software such a ZBrush, 3DCoat and Blender etc. Once the sculpts are done these models are re-meshed, or re-topologized and then the mesh is dense enough that it can be shelled/thickened very consistently using a quad-mesh thickening similar to what can be done with the T-Spline thickening method.

The reason the thickness in your T-Spline is inconsistent is because the model does not have enough geometry or really subdvisions. I take such meshes out of Fusion 360 and apply one or 2 levels of Catmul-Clark subdivision in Blender, apply a solidify modifier in Blender to thicken the shell and then that goes back into Fusion 360.

 

Here is a tutorial I made recently to addresses this T-Spline thickening problem:

 

 


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Message 7 of 20
danolson1
in reply to: TrippyLighting

If you take the very first T-spline body I made (form1) and try to shell it, it doesn't work. Since it didn't work, I did things another way, and thus the problem is not visible in the timeline. I mostly posted the model as an example of how to get the same result by offsetting faces.

 

The complex hole in the middle of the shape is derived from scanned geometry (a 3D scan of a cast bronze broccoli). For this shape, even offsetting the face didn't work, so I had to offset all of the curves I used for the loft and then loft another face. Even then, this didn't result in uniform thickness, since the offset direction of the loft curves wasn't always normal to the surface.

 

This model is working for my needs right now, so I'm not looking for assistance with it.

 

-Dan

Message 8 of 20
TrippyLighting
in reply to: danolson1

That shape shell fine for me at a reasonable thickness. Reasonable meaning that the wall thickness cannot exceed the smallest radius on that curved surface, which is likely why shelling failed in your case.

 

 


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Message 9 of 20
danolson1
in reply to: TrippyLighting

Thanks. That's interesting. What thickness worked for you? Is there any way to determine the maximum thickness that will work aside from trial and error?
Message 10 of 20
Anonymous
in reply to: TrippyLighting

Regardless of your personal doubts about the toy industry, I assure you there is enough money there to yield the use of more than just a multi-thousand dollar 3d software.  My company has dozens of business subscriptions to Adobe CC products, Fusion 360, Rhino...etc, over 100k in printers, 30k in thermoforming equipment, 90k in plotters, 10k in 3d printers, and this is just the design office.  Not to mention, the factories that handle mass produced worldwide orders always require CAD files from us to work with. Mold-making, design, production...all require machinery/software that on a yearly basis add up to tens of thousands of dollars.

 

Anyhow, I truly appreciate your input and instruction here, as I have been seeking answers without success for some time now.  I have been modeling things in blender and then importing the .obj files into fusion 360.  I have several issues with doing everything in blender.

 

1:) the boolean functions yield completely undesirable topology...something I haven't found a fix for yet, so if you could direct me in the right direction there that would be great.

 

2:) if I use the solidify modifier on a complex object like this, there are a lot of areas of overlapping geometry, regardless of the subdivision applied.

 

If you have any insight as to how to deal with these issues...I would be eternally grateful. 🙂  As is, thanks for taking the time out of your schedule to help me out.  I appreciate your knowledge and guidance quite a bit.

 

Message 11 of 20
jeff_strater
in reply to: Anonymous

I've been following along on this thread.  Getting back to the original design problem - if you are making a bread mold, do you really need a precise offset?  It seems to me that the only side that needs to be precise is the one that is touching the material to be molded - the inside.  The outside doesn't matter.  You have a very nice surface model of a seahorse, all you need is for that to be the "A side" of the mold.  Are we making this design problem harder than it needs to be?

 

The screencast below is probably not the ideal result - would be too much material.  If I had time, I'd make a simplified TSpline version of the B side, instead of a simple extrude.  But, hopefully you get the idea and can make it work.

 

 

 

 


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
Message 12 of 20
Anonymous
in reply to: jeff_strater

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for the reply and the video.  I appreciate the thought and time you put into that, and it was definitely informative and nice to see your thought process.  The only problems I have with doing that stem from the need to utilize a little plastic as possible number one, and number two, in the toy industry what sells the product is the cutesy look of the piece.  I realize this is what is botching up my whole process because the top side needs to look as close as possible to the actual mold side, but it is what it is.  I have had some success taking it into mesh mixer and creating a 1 mm thickness, however, that is not a file that the factory will be able to utilize as far as I am told because they only work with CAD files.  I realize all this may not be possible the way I am trying to do it, but my hopes were to find out what I don't know...because not knowing what you don't know is probably the trickiest part of learning anything.

 

With that in mind, any additional tips or thoughts would be so appreciated.

Thanks again,

Message 13 of 20
jeff_strater
in reply to: Anonymous

OK, that makes sense.  Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I did play around a bit with Scale - if you are very careful, you can copy that body, scale it just the right amount, and position it just as carefully, and get a pseudo-shell that way.  It won't be uniform thickness, but you might be able to get that to be close.  

 

Alternatively, if the entire model had been done in T-Splines, the Offset in Sculpt mode works pretty well, and can be an alternative to the more precise B-Rep shell.

 

Beyond that, the techniques that @TrippyLighting recommends are the only ones that I think might have a chance to work.


Jeff Strater
Engineering Director
Message 14 of 20
TrippyLighting
in reply to: Anonymous

I have no doubts that the toy industry has enough resources. For no good reason - silly me -  I had assumed this might just be a private venture. Well .. never mind then 😉

I am officially jealous at the resources you have at hand!

 

Work flows and tools that help combine, bridge and enhance T-Splines and Sub-D modeling are very interesting to me.

 

What I would try is to change the order of operation a little. You created several individual T-Spline bodies/meshes. Those converted into surfaces, or solid bodies. Then you split them and stitched them into the final surface you were hoping to shell or thicken.

 

While it is more work I would try to thicken these individual surfaces individually and then do the same thing you did before but simply twice, once for the inner surface and once for the outer and then stitch the result.

The individual T-Splines have a much higher chance of getting thickened with the thicken in the patch workspace than the combined stitched object.

 

This is more work but likely much more robust.


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Message 15 of 20
Anonymous
in reply to: TrippyLighting

I'll try that and see what I can come up with.  I am sort of dreading the process...lol.  But if it yields the result in an acceptable amount of time, then that's what I might have to do.

 

Thanks for your help,

Zach Kline

Message 16 of 20
TrippyLighting
in reply to: Anonymous

Would you be interested in sharing the model ?

I'd try my own hand at it.


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Message 17 of 20

Hi Jeff,

 

I'm working on a similar problem and have used an identical method to the one shown in this screencast to create a mold. What would it take to create a certain thickness of dead space between the molded object and the mold? That is, how would you create a tolerance of say 0.25" between the mold and the object?

Message 18 of 20

Start a new thread, share the model in .f3d format.


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Message 19 of 20
meisterpumpernickel
in reply to: Anonymous

Hello Guys,

 

I have a similar problem while printing. I thought a solution would be to offset the surface instead of thicken. But then I dont find a way to connect the two surfaces. Any ideas?

 

 

Message 20 of 20

Offsetting the surface and thickening will generate the same geometry in the file you attached.


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