Material definition in Manufacture process...?

[johnhska8]

Hi all, first post ever, extreme newbie warning, sorry in advance; but,

So, I'm going through Mike Mattera's very basic "Creating tool paths and programs (CAM)/Fundamentals of milling" series of videos, which are great.  I have what I'm sure is an infuriatingly basic question, though.  So a few videos in to this series, he selects tools to face the stock off, contour it, and so on.  He shows and uses default speeds and feeds for each of these tools, which is great.  HOWEVER, I cannot see in this tutorial, anywhere where he actually defines WHAT the stock material is, i.e., is it 6061 aluminum, is it titanium,...?  I have to figure this is defined somewhere and at some point, otherwise how would Fusion know what to decide for default speeds/feeds, right?  But I don't know where this is.  Is it like 'embedded' already in the "Intro to 2D Machining" part model that he uses to do the manufacturing tutorial?  Any thoughts on this would be really appreciated.  Thanks and I hope to ask better questions in future...C. Hale, Colorado

[seth.madore]

Hello and welcome to the Fusion forums!

The speeds and feeds shown by Mike Mattera are not to be considered as factual numbers and successful in actual machining. I'd recommend going to the manufacturers recommended paramters as a good starting point.

Furthermore, there's no mechanism in Fusion for material selections to impact any portion of cutting feeds and speeds. It would certainly be awesome if it did, but alas, it's not to be (at least not anytime soon)

[johnhska8]

Thanks for the welcome, and the answer, which surprises me but certainly answers my question!  I figured for sure if such info was being provided in there like that, there must be some 'basis' for it.  Is there like a 'nominal' material that the software uses, I would think?  If it's for instance, 6061 "or thereabouts", I would think it would often be useful (i.e, I certainly make lots of stuff out of aluminum).  But at any rate, that's definitely good to know, and I'll just continue to get better at using my handy new copy of G-Wizard : )  I'll have to actually look at the speed/feed values in Fusion and see where they seem to fall in comparison to what GW would tell me, etc.  As I'm sure you can tell, I'm just barely beginning this CNC journey, with a new-to-me 2018 Tormach 770M machine.  Up soon is a need to get the appropriate post processor loaded into Fusion, and of course watching Mike's series of beginner 2D milling videos about thirty more times...thanks again--Charley

--I am by the way, nominally not planning to learn how to design/model in Fusion, as I'm a Solidworks guy (well, frankly really a 2D ACAD guy, who's gradually managed to learn enough SW over the past few years to get dangerous) and I'd prefer to keep using and improving my SW capabilities in that regard; and only use Fusion for the CAM functionality.  Do you see any...issues, with that approach?  thx--

[DarthBane55]

Just a side note; if you have GWizard, use that!  Any S&F from Fusion out of the box would be quite... hmmmm... random?  Even if it was for some specific material, it would not be tailored to the specific cut you are doing at any time, Gwizard will be much, much better for that.  Plus I would assume that Gwizard takes into account the HP of your machine, which in your case will often be the limiting factor, so it is important to use it.  I use HSMadvisor, which I think is direct competition to Gwizard, and I tailor most of my cuts using it, it is amazing. 

But also, in Fusion, say you always kind of use the same cutting depths etc, you can set "presets" per tool in the tool library, that could be handy as well for default values based on material.  Not close to Gwizard tho!

[johnswetz1982]

While you can set the material in Fusion, that is used mainly for the simulation / analysis (FEA) properties and if you were to render your item it sets the rendering properties such as specular highlights, anistroscispy, etc. Also to give a different appearance on your screen so that if you have a brass bushing you can see it in a different color than the aluminum main part, etc. 

[seth.madore]

---

@johnhska8 wrote:

--I am by the way, nominally not planning to learn how to design/model in Fusion, as I'm a Solidworks guy (well, frankly really a 2D ACAD guy, who's gradually managed to learn enough SW over the past few years to get dangerous) and I'd prefer to keep using and improving my SW capabilities in that regard; and only use Fusion for the CAM functionality.  Do you see any...issues, with that approach?  thx--

---

Modeling in SWX and bringing the models into Fusion for the CAM is a workflow, but there can be some limitations if not done properly. With AnyCAD for Fusion, you can upload the parts directly to your A360 account and then open them in Fusion. That will allow you to then go back into SWX and make any revisions needed, which should then flow back into the Fusion document.

Honestly though, I find the Fusion modeling experience such an easy one and (generally) built for better end-to-end success. Of course, I'm biased, but I also use Fusion on a daily basis in my own shop 😉

[DarthBane55]

With AnyCAD for Fusion, you can upload the parts directly to your A360 account and then open them in Fusion. That will allow you to then go back into SWX and make any revisions needed, which should then flow back into the Fusion document.

@seth.madore regarding AnyCAD (and I am probably going beyond the scope of this thread now, but if you know something about the following please let me know):

we use Inventor mainly, but are looking at going more and more in Fusion.  We have so much data in Inventor, that it would be beneficial for us to use AnyCAD for all the stuff we already have modeled up.  However, I hit a brick wall with it, because our data is stored on a server, not on my local computer.  There does not seem to be a way to have AnyCAD look at the server.  In order for AnyCAD to work, you have to install this Autodesk connector thingy, then it creates a Fusion 360 drive on the local computer, and you have to model in there for this to work.  If I copy a file to that Fusion drive (local computer) from the server, it is a copy, and has no link to the files on the server.  So basically, it is useless in that scenario...  unless you know something that can make this work maybe? (server to Fusion direct).

[seth.madore]

@DarthBane55 that's well outside of my knowledge. I'll touch base with someone who will know more and they can reply to you. This might warrant a new thread though, don't want to derail topics 😉

[DarthBane55]

Yes right, let's not get off topic!  hehe

I should start a new thread now, or wait for someone to contact me?

[seth.madore]

I think it would be helpful to start a new discussion, allowing the necessary devs to chime in without clouding the waters around the OP's issue

[mattdlr89]

@DarthBane55  also interested in that aspect of anyCAD...

but back to the original post. I use solidworks to model and we import into Fusion just for the CAM package. I have only been using since June but we have done some fairly complex models and haven’t really had any issues. It pretty easy to update the Solidworks model and re-add to fusion. If you’re clever with how you define all you machining operations everything will update as your solidworks model changes too. Which is a huge time saver!

If you start doing major changes like deleting and adding features/faces you may have a bit more work to correct your toolpaths as you update your model though by the time you’re getting round to programming the CAM your model should be pretty complete hopefully! 

[DarthBane55]

@mattdlr89 

How do you get Fusion to regen the ops when you change the model?  I mean, for Fusion, putting a new model in that is imported is like a complete new animal for it, even if the change is very slight.  For example, if you machine down to a floor, you will have to repick that floor, no?  All geometry edges for 2d operations will need re-picking, no?  If you have a way around this, can you explain please?

Thanks!

[DarthBane55]

For those interested to follow the anyCAD sub-topic, I found an old thread in the design forum and resurrected it:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-design-validate/inventor-to-fusion-with-link/m-p/8668798/h...

Sorry for this incursion again, but some users wanted to follow that too.  No more on that topic in this thread.

[johnhska8]

Thanks, very interesting thread here to be sure, and no worries on my part in it having diverged some from my original query (though I can understand the group wants to keep that under control in order to search topics more effectively and all).  Yes, I may be surprised in the long run, but I really expect in my case that by the time I'm trying to CAM a (SW-designed) part, I'm way past wanting to modify it on the fly and such.  But it's an interesting thing to try to learn how to do and I'll keep on this over time.  My next task I think is to get the 'best' (only?) Tormach mill post processor installed in Fusion (I guess pretty straightforward?) and start trying to follow some more tutorials on this CAM topic.

[John_Wright]

Whilst I do believe that the original thread has been largely answered, I feel I need to chime in as this is such an important topic. 

Put simply, there are not "correct" feeds and speeds lists for materials and cutters, there are only guidelines. The value that you actually use will only come through experience. The shortened list of factors that will dictate your feeds and speeds is as follows:

Material type (goes without saying)

Required accuracy

Required surface finish

Work holding

Machine rigidity

Machine horsepower

Maximum spindle speed

Job time (is it a one off, or production run)

As a basic guide, any decent cutter supplier will give you a range for the following parameters for any given parameter. I am looking at a box of milling inserts for tool steel on my desk, and they give the following as a guide:

Surface speed 100-280

Depth of cut 0.1-10mm

Cut per tooth 0.05 - 0.2

The number of flutes (inserts in this case), spindle speed and feed will dictate your surface speed and cuts per tooth. (fusion calculates this for you). You can then adjust the depth of cut and step-over as part of your clearing and cutting profiles. 

Does this mean that you should aim for the middle of all of the values? Not really, because, for example, you may not have the spindle speed to be able to achieve the desired surface speed and will have to adjust other parameters to compensate. 

Does this mean I can take a full 10mm depth of cut with 0.2mm chips per tooth at the full width of the cutter? Maybe, if you have a large machining centre. If it is a bench top hobby router, then probably not.

It basically comes from experience.

One thing to say, you will certainly find out what doesn't work when you snap cutters and have that horrible noise of pushing a machine too hard or work holding failing : (

Once you start achieving a good surface finish, good cutter life and a happy machine, you will start to get a feel for what does work. 

I hope this helps. 

[johnhska8]

johnZ6XM7, absolutely this certainly helps newbie me. (thirty-some years
making a jillion things on my 1964 J-Head Bport, and I feel like nearly
of that informs my 'correct' use of this Tormach 770M!).  After a
good many years fending off half-joking complaints from various friends
in the area trying to get me to take an interest in CNC, I recently
found myself needing to spend several hours up at a local CNC shop for
'real work' purposes (as opposed to my ~ hobby-level interests), working
with a very sharp young CNC entrepreneur (dealing with some bizarre
graphite-composite parts, of all things).  He did the work I needed to
'supervise' on a mid-90's Cincinnati Milacron VMC.  After about 6 hours
of exposure to that machine, I was HOOKED, line-and-sinker, and now have
this really nice little 770M in my home shop.  His quite detailed,
invaluable feedback to me so far on speeds-and-feeds, is just about
identical to yours here.  He thinks I'll do well to use something like
G-Wizard, but hopes and expects me to eventually get to where I can
'feel what's right'.  It's a fascinating journey already at any rate,
and I expect to learn a LOT by following along in this forum.  --Charley

[mattdlr89]

Hi @DarthBane55 

For me when I reimport an updated Solidworks model it will regen the toolpaths to the changes geometry without any intervention. Assuming that I have referenced contours, heights etc off items in the 3D model.

It will remember the 2D contours and adapt them if they change, assuming that the same edge still exists in the model and it has only moved. Say I had a simple pocket in a part and I used the edge of that pocket for some 2D machining. If I go to solidworks and change the size of it then go back to Fusion this will be recognised and wherever those edges, or faces are reference in operations will be updated to new values. If I was to completely change the shape of that pocket say from a rectangle to a pentagon then I don't think it picks it up as there is now a "new" edge and Fusion doesn't know how to deal with it. In that case I'd need to repick the contour. 

Typically the changes I am making to models once we have started on the CAM side will be changes to hole depths, pocket depths and repositioning of some features so these are normally picked up by Fusion. Making more substantial changes to the model will require some edges etc to be re-picked.