Seeking advice on modelling approach.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I've been trying various methods (Sculpting and 2D Sketching -> 3D Lofting) to model the below flight control grip but have not been able to achieve a 'clean' model.

What is the best approach to modelling such as this ergonomic grip that has some very 'tight' geometry in certain places?

Thanks in advance,

Marc

[cekuhnen]

@Anonymous

CV = control vertex

some call it control point

this are the points you use for nurbs curves and nurbs surfaces

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-uniform_rational_B-spline

[Anonymous]

@cekuhnen ... Thanks ... Progress so far with T-Splines

[Anonymous]

@cekuhnen, @beresfordromeo, anyone

Hi Guys,

I've hit a road block so to speak. I think this is where I've reached the limit in terms of my "current" abilities.

As per the attached pic - I'm trying to model the RHS of the grip which houses a "thumb switch", the "index button" and the thumb rest ( which I describe like a "T" section that merges from the thumb guard to the main grip body ). I just can't seem to make this section "flow" with the main body.

I've tried modelling them as separate pieces and as one continuous but I'm constantly pushing and pulling on faces / verts etc. and I just end up with a mess of bulges.

Any ideas of how to approach this section, or example tutorials showing something similar ?

[beresfordromeo]

 Hi @Anonymous

Could you please share your new file so that I can take another look.

On a separate note I pretty much worked out how to do the model in patch alone (or at least mostly). I haven't made a video about that yet, in part because I haven't finalised the ideas but also because I didn't want to clutter your discussion. Also I was also obviously missing some details which would be another reason to share your current file, particularly I am interested in your canvases and your base dimensions (you had some in your side elevation but it would be good to get dimensions on another plane or two).

So anyway if you are happy to share your file publicly then we can all see from the same perspective and perhaps come up with different ideas, I would particularly be interested to see a patch to tspline workflow comparison.

[Anonymous]

Cheers for all your help @beresfordromeo

Unfortunately I don't have a file to share at this time as I've pretty much scrapped all my attempts. The model is at the same stage as per the last screen shot in reply to @cekuhnen.

A good friend of mine who is a heavy Solid Works user suggested breaking up the components by creating several parametric parts and use boolean operations to come up with a rough shape if the final section. Then convert the shape to a T-Spline object to further refine things.

[Anonymous]

@beresfordromeo 

Here is where I'm at right now.

http://a360.co/2iGotcW

[beresfordromeo]

Thanks @Anonymous

Can you check for me if this share  is both public and downloadable? I can't seem to download it.

Also are the buttons in the correct positions at the moment. ie do you want them to be exactly in those positions?

[beresfordromeo]

OK just to address your specific question about that part that you are having difficulty with. 

These complex changes of shape are often better thought of as 'cut outs'. That is to say you would model the main body as a single body with extra material there and then use a new geometry to cut that shape into it. this could be done with a single body/single operation or multiple bodies/operations to get the right cut outs. 

I know what you mean about the t-spline fever. It is why I so much prefer surfaces but it is worth exploring some really useful tools in that environment like the pull and match commands. This allows you to pull vertices towards splines or lines or even other bodies.

[Anonymous]

@beresfordromeo thanks for your continued efforts.

Here is latest version ... I made some progress even if I say so myself 😎

http://a360.co/2zo8Am5

[beresfordromeo]

Ok got it. 

Good stuff. Looks like you are getting the hang of it.

I always think that whatever you have built is never a total waste of time even if the surface is poor, because you can use sketch intersect projections to get points off the body, create new splines and re-loft, patch etc to get yourself a smoother body. For sure complex designs require these 'rebuilds'. I suspect industrial designers 'rough out' also.

Ok so if the buttons are in the right place I will take a look at this tonight and see what I come up with. I appreciate you sharing your design because I learn a lot from solving problems I would not normally face so it is a huge advantage to me to help you. I only hope I don't waste your time.

[Anonymous]

You, wasting my time? ... Are you serious? ... Bah Humbug!

I'm a complete novice to this, I feel I've achieved something towards my end goal with everyone's input.

You're not wasting my time I assure you.

[cekuhnen]

@Anonymous Humbug ? Are you German?

i wanted to say sorry for my absence recently. I am normally pretty fast with replying but since I have a now 6 week old baby my times just flys by zip zip ...

claas

[beresfordromeo]

Well that is cool. 

OK so I have been thinking about this from so many points of view. I think we will have both learned a lot. I have't had time yet to think about this properly but as an example I have been thinking about your model from the point of view of intersection curves (amongst others).

There is a short video here. I calibrated your canvases and put in some reference curves and lines and then used sketch > project include >intersection curve to make the 3D splines.

I am sorry I don't have more for you yet but here is a short video of me starting to use this method. I will do more on it as soon as I can. I am confident we can work this out.

[Anonymous]

@cekuhnen ... I'm German decedent, but 1st generation Australian for my family. No need to apologise, and congratulations! I'm personally going to be a grandfather for the first time in Feb 2018 ... exciting times.

@beresfordromeo ... Thanks so much. I certainly don't expect anyone to do the all work. I'm in this to learn, but your videos are a great help and doing that intersect curve operation is brilliant.

The trouble I have is trying to source good reference material as there is a lot of what I call 'busy' geometry in this HOTAS, and most of the images are all taken from pretty much the same angle.

I did find some which show a decent bulge on the RHS of the grip head where there are two more inputs (1 x momentary button and a 4 way hat switch). Trying to interperate the images it looks like the head is tilted slightly to the left and twisted anti-clockwise slightly. This makes sense as the grip is not centrally located in the cockpit but on the RHS.

[Anonymous]

INcase you haven't figured it out... CV is Control Vertice

[tommi.p.laiho]

Hi,

I understand your problems. NURBS are brutal ways to do anything excellent and actual surface. In general, those who can make it are so-called Class-A surface modellers. They are not designers but modellers only. However, these people are indeed good at what they can do. 

It is impossible to be an autodidact Class-A modeller in real life. The task with Autodesk alias is so complex that nervous breakdown is an obvious consequence. Trust me, I tried that many years and quickly passed anyone in our school of handling Autodesk alias, but I well knew that I am not a true Class-A modeller. I know all the tools, but some crucial knowledge is missing. I can't do it just like that. I can only make class B or C level work, which is typically enough for MA and Industrial designers. Typical designers do not even understand how bad a modeller he is when they graduate from design school. I think very few of my fellow students understood the concept of the class A surfacing and how far they were from that. 

People who know will not tell. It is like some conspiracy to keep their position as valuable. If I learned how to make money with stocks, unlike anyone, I would hardly like to tell anyone my secret knowledge. 

If you have access to Rhinoceros 7.0 and a Blender, you can make watertight NURBS surfacing by using their new T-Splines system. It is almost the same as the SubD system, do not worry about terms too much. It is still not hardcore class-A surfacing, all but that. But it is the second best alternative to make clean class B surfaces like this: 

1. Make a rough car/joystick with typical NURBS surfaces. I do not care about watertight seams yet.

2. Convert your NURBS surfaces to the polygons using the Rhino NURBS control polygons function. Keep everything as simple as possible. 

3. Export your unfinished and sketch-like work to the Blender. 

4. Be an excellent polygon modeller and make it look good 

5. Go back to Rhino and convert work to the sub-d surface.

6. Now convert it to NURBS surface and make trimmings with Rhino etc. Very easy!

This is a way to make trimmings to polygons and understand the relation to the Catmull - Clark smoothing. 

That's it. It sounds complex and can be made well in MAYA, the only product I miss from Autodesk. Only one, due to sub-surfaces, which is the same as T-Splines. I wouldn't say I like Autodesk Alias; I have given up. Not my business; I have a better life than a hardcore Class_A surface modeller has. 

I want to learn Blender and be an animator and modeller with that; it's excellent and free. Much more admirable job and task. 

[cekuhnen]

@tommi.p.laiho 

I teach digital design with a passion

Alias Rhino Fusion360 Maya SolidThinking Shapr3d Blender

and I can tell you from experience may schools dont teach CAD well - often faculty aren’t even good at it.

There is also a major misunderstanding on what what is and how it can be used.

sketch more cad later 

cad is slow

bla bla bla

I do agree with Alias and class-a surfacing being labor intensive. It is not difficult to do. It is rather logical and simple actually. But is that how you want to spent you time?

The main reason Alias is used in trans design and less in industrial design is because the alias modeler bases his work on clay model scans.

this semester I do teach a pretty big workshop at CCS Center for Creative Studies which is a top elite design school.

The workshop I give is in transportation design and I will teach the students how to animate and render in Blender.

They moved away from Maya and Keyshot and ZBrush because you can do the same in Blender equally good and for free too.

It is quite interesting to see that they do no sculpt in Blender and then use maya to do the sub-d / nurbs modeling because Alias sub-d modeling tools defeat everybody else. T-Splines is not as fast and good here.

What I find quite nice in working with Fusion unlike Rhino is the direct modeling ability and the absence of CV for nurbs patches. Do I not miss that. T-Splines can btw quite nicely be used like NURBS patch replacements when you want to hand move CVs. A pure NURBS patch however is lighter than the usual heavy T-Splines topology.

In the past years I taught CAD pretty detailed but in recent time moved away and mainly focused on showing students how to use Fusion360 and Blender to create concept sketch models up to manufacturing models.

I find by giving up some control about CVs and topology we did get however a faster tool to procedure models and explore ideas.

And well Autodesk is amazing for giving us free edu licenses ! Unlike solid works 😉

[cekuhnen]

Omg did I reply to a 4-5 year old post ? I am quite late //

[tommi.p.laiho]

If Autodesk could give me hardcore Class-A surfacing educational help, I could pay for it. It is just that the typical tutorials handle simple cases only. The question is how to make Ferrari Enzo Ferrari with Class-A surfaces from bottom to ceiling. I do not know, but with Blender, I can do something else almost as impressive as modelling and rendering work. I would not like to be a loser like this, but Alias was a tough case. 

The teacher could be some Chinese guy who can speak English and is a hero of Alias. If the prize were not enormous, I would like to have lessons like this. I think car manufacturers have some willingness to teach this kind of stuff to some fortunate people who can get into work in the car business. But that's all teaching there is, which is meaningful with Alias. I bet Autodesk could also educate me if I had enough money by no means. 

[cekuhnen]

Most transportation design schools teach class-a

but there is a difference between trans designer and Alia’s modeler 

you can also get Alia’s certificates at universities and community colleges 

question is why 

class-a certificate people do who want to be Alia’s modelers and execute designs

I have students who work at ford and use maya to make concept models 

they stopped using Alias for that

and at CCS they also embrace polygon sun-d modeling and sculpting to make concepts which then you resurface in Alias.

as a product designer I create a proposal and the engineer creates the manufacturing model

in my teaching i do cover surfacing techniques to build smooth transitions

and what I do on a small scale hair dryer for example is the same for a car 

with a car and Alias it is just more complex in terms of quantity 

you have to align more nurbs patches and move the cvs to align 

good polygon modeling does actually help with Alias !

It is all about topology and alignment 

Where fusion is rather problematic is how some tools don’t produce food results

for example loft deflates surfaces 

an Alias square tool is what i suggested since 7 years 

patch tool has bad edges to build from but patch tool is also a mixed bag

it is however a godsend when making domes to close caps