Placing a Decal at Correct Scale

[davidcuesta76]

Correct Scale

I have a decal which I have designed in illustrator for a bottle design and saved out as .PNG.

The decal is meant to be 30mm tall. My bottle is 55mm tall. 

I need to know how to import the decal so it is the absolute correct size on the bottle.

Simple enough you would think. However if I take the advice from other posts and make the decal 30px it comes out very low res. 

And even then in imports not really at correct scale. I can manually scale it but that is not very precise.

What is the best tested and true way to get the decal to appear in its actual correct size at hi enough res that it does not look pixelated.

Perhaps I could use a different tool, but I actually just want to place it as a label.

[hongocha]

And a bit off topic but relevant to quality & correction. Please add SVG or any other vector file format into decal. We can import SVG into sketch vector already, but not for decal. We need a more smooth / clear quality display. Also for vector graphics, we can scale / resize it without pixel broken.

[mjames]

Sorry Martin, but I don't think that this is really a solution. It is a workaround.

However, this workaround proves that they can import a graphic at the correct size, but for some reason they won't put this ability into the Decal tool where it is really needed. Nobody is going to think to look for a Decal solution deep in the Appearance functionality. This is not an Appearance issue.

All that said, thanks for the workaround Martin. 🙂

[terry_fusion]

I don't know about the others here in the thread, but I'm going to jump in and give my own .02 cents.

I work in a custom fab sign shop, we work with logos and graphics as a critical feature,  I need the ability to import any graphic design element (png, vector, bitmap, tiff,pdf etc) place it, scale it, and have it render properly.

Not only for looks but I use the profile of the customers art files to cut through our sign faces to make either push thru lettering (which needs a tolerances in the  0.00" range) or surface applied cut features.

I always have to pop out of Fusion into another program to deal with these issues.

Come on already, lets get this DONE!

[Phil.E]

@terry_fusion Thanks for the feedback.

It sounds like you have two requests. 

1. Be able to specify what physical size a decal has when placing it.

2. Be able to convert decal imagery into extrude features.

The first one is what the thread here has been discussing. 

The second one is rather technically challenging. Have you tried using the Canvas command? Typically Canvas is used to import an image, scale it, and then "draw on top of it". The user is expected to generate the high-precision geometry using sketch tools. 

Please let me know what other tools you are using, and more details about the workflow. Are the other tools producing objects that Fusion uses as sketch lines from images?

[mjames]

Most graphic formats have the width and height and DPI (dots per inch) encoded into the file's header. (Here's a great way to see the actual data of any png file: https://www.nayuki.io/page/png-file-chunk-inspector).

When I create a graphic, I tell the editor the final size I need for width and height, and then how dense of a resolution I need - the DPI or sometimes Pixels/Inch.

If I create a 4" x 5" graphic to use as a decal, it should be a simple process to bring the graphic into Fusion and have it be exactly 4" x 5" in the model. Every graphics editor and layout program does this. It's the standard way of working with graphic files.

After it's placed on the model, it would be good to make adjustments if my file was not sized correctly when it was created, but the default should be the width and height described in the file header. So simple.

It is incredible that the Fusion development team has not fixed this over the past (almost) decade of complaints. Color me flummoxed.

[hongocha]

Hi. I cannot even set correct size to the Apperance material image, as trying to do the work arround above. When I set the size to the matched face, say a x b (mm). The previewing image zoomed out very big and cannot fit into the expected size. Do anyone successfully set the size in Apperance material?

[Phil.E]

@mjames There are always competing priorities and a finite amount of resources. Thanks for raising the issue to bring your voices to the discussion to show just how important this is to customers such as yourself.

[hongocha]

I'm trying to set the size for the image following the maked solved solution above. The steps to reproduce below:

- Select the face wanted to set image, right click & choose Appearance;
- Select an Apperance in the "In this Design" list, right click, Dupplicate to your own one & Edit;

- Set Scale slider value to exact 50, not 1 nor 100, is a correct scale value (Please explain the scale value?).
- Click Advanced, drag resize the Material Editor window so it appears the dropdown arrow in the Parameter section, choose Image in the dropdown menu, browse for an image PNG;
- The image is shown in the Parameters / Image box. Click again into the image. A new popup window appears allowing us to specify Scale dimensions. Enter Width & Height in the Sample Size text boxes. Mine enter 200 mm for Width & 30 mm for Height.

- Choose Repeat Horizontal: None, Vertical: None. So the image content will be stress into the box.

- Click Apply to close the setting windows. Assign this appearance into the desired face.

- Make sure the Texture map control of the face is set to Automatic. If the image position is wrong, set Texture map control is Box then move the origin position around (nudge, not exact position!).

So, with my steps above, I see the image position is variant & I don't know how to set correct parameter for image texture & mapping. Please correct me?

[Phil.E]

@hongocha I have an alternative workaround that might help some of the people struggling with this.

Note: This is not one of the reasons why this hasn't yet been addressed by the development teams. Nor is it presented as a workaround for the core issue of using decals at the precise size of the image. This is just a suggestion for designers who use decals the way I used decals in my time designing rack mounted, high powered, electrical gear prior to my career at Autodesk.

First the assumptions I work under:

1. The decal image is not produced "from" the CAD file. A graphics program always makes the sticker art. The CAD program just displays it as it would be perceived by the human eye.

2. The only precision required is size and location. The exact pixel placement of the art elements is approximate, and up to 1% error is acceptable because it's not perceivable by the human eye nor is it measurable in CAD or real life. At least I've never had to measure it with calipers to sub-mm precision, and I doubt UL did either when they qualified my works.

3. My end goal is always accurate look and placement of important stickers. Silk screen art is not part of this workflow, for me. I used silk screen art on every project I used decals on, but not with imagery as the method to produce it. Silk screen art is the one exception to requirements for extreme precision for imagery in a CAD design. I've used AutoCAD and Inventor to produce PDF legends for silk screen purposes. It can be a pain to model it.

How I do it in Fusion:

First model the size and location of the decal placement. It starts with a sketch. This is precise.

Then split the face here to create the sticker shape. The precision remains.

Then apply the decal, turn off "chain faces". Some scaling and moving around the decal image is required. The result is within a few pixels of what it will be in real life. This is sufficient for marketing imagery, which is all I use decals for. 

If you want to use this data in drawings, use Split Body instead of Split Face to create the zone. This produces edges you can put dimensions on.

Again, I hope we can produce a better workflow than this, one that satisfies your desires to use image sizes with Decal commands, but for now this is what I personally might do when precision decal art is required. I recognize this is not a representative use of decal for everyone on this thread. Thanks for your patience. 

[hongocha]

This is what I'm doing right now, with acceptable result assume we have already a precise face as a "container" for the decal. The decal fits inside the container it is allowed to be bigger than the precise container but all overlap trimmed hidden so we only see the correct pos, size of the final content.

My addition info is, the convenient way now I got is that, I can easily move, resize the overlapped decal using just mouse, using the gribs for moving / scaling, inline directly, visually in the face with real time result, without need of typing any assumtion value by keyboard into the dialog. That is good enough for me to align the decal into the acceptable pos / size inside the container face.

[jean-michel_legoff]

Hi,

IS there today any tips to place a Decal at correct scale on a surface?

I used a sheet metal to unwrap the surface I need to texture.
I've exported the flat pattern in order to draw the texture at the 1:1 scale.
Next I wan't to place this texture as a decal on  my bended part. but can't find the magic formula to define offsets and Scale... the only corre ct value is the rotation which could make sens...

Many thanks

[lqg5960]

I really shouldn't be surprised because this is how it always is with Fusion. Some completely conventional feature works differently than everything else or is completely missing for no reason, and despite people asking for it, it hasn't been addressed in over 5 years. WHY is there only a scale option and not one for specific width/height? It's stupid. Decal is simply just not very useful without the ability to specify size exactly.

[mjames]

My suggestion is to give up and learn how to finish your model in Blender. It's a lot to learn but it's free and you'll find lots of uses for it.

[jean-michel_legoff]

Hi,

I know that it is possible to get the final resul in 3rd party software. But sometimes placing a decal is not only for « decoration ».
For some products, it may be part of the « designing process » and is a la ufacturîg constraint. So you need to handle it with the same accuracy than other geometric feature.
On the other hand, using a decal is already a workaround to compensate the poor options to apply appearances parametrically.

[terry_fusion]

1. 
   

    

   That is a good approach.

The issues I have working in with decals in my shop. Is our bread and butter is creating digital art to be placed and align exactly from one panel or part to the other. And just dragging a handle around to make it fit is frustrating. There just isn't the level of precision and control to do this. 

The decals I receive come from our customers and then through our art department. So there is little to no deviation in size, scale, placement, color match, etc.

In a production environment every extra step adds up and adds time to already short lead times.

I surely hope there is some improvement in this area

I've just attached a couple of screenshots.

These are a composite wall print system, with cnc'd back panels, using a tongue and groove mating feature from panel to panel to lock the seams together. Then an acrylic panel with an image  being printed second surface printed directly to the material.

When these are assembled they must not only align from panel to panel the registration between prints is crucial.

Hopefully those two case scenarios help.

I would like to add that I have seen a great number of response from 'Autodesk' people that simply discount the request people make, a common response is, well that's not how its done or I don't see the need, those are super inappropriate and dismissive comments.

When someone takes the time out of their busy work day to relay an issue or 'bug' and are then shut down, so not cool.

[Phil.E]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm sorry you feel shut down. It might help to know that people like me who try to help on this forum are not decision makers when it comes to new features, or improvements. We take reports, and provide your voice to decision makers.

Sometimes, I've noticed that when I produce a "workaround" people take that to be dismissive. Quite the opposite. If what a customer wants is not yet available, the only option is to provide the closest possible workflow that might satisfy their needs. This is care for the customer, not dismissal.

When it comes to bugs, we log the bugs reported on the forum, and fix them regularly. When we release these fixes, we try to notify the original reporter and update the thread. 

Can you share a design with the development team so we can look at what you're trying to accomplish? Often the best approach in CAD is to use an image to describe a complicated process or object.

[lqg5960]

I'm happy and thankful you're trying to figure out the use cases and suggest help for the problem, but I don't see why you need to figure out the use case for placing a decal at a specific and known size. How is the defining trait of parametric modeling absent in this feature? The same is true of the canvas feature. Images have a built-in measurement for size. If I export an image at 5 inches by 7 inches, I should be able to just place it in at 5 inches by 7 inches. (and I would also hope to be able to stretch and scale it by specifying the bounding dimensions of the image in Fusion as I'm placing it)

Thanks for trying to help. Very much appreciate that there is a support system with such a fast response time.

I'm just trying to have laser engraving I plan to do on a part represented in renders without extruding it and changing the material. I do not want to create unneeded lag by introducing a ton of new geometry in an already complex file that has a lot of text extrusion already. I tried splitting the face but that doesn't help because I still cannot have a predetermined size, I have to eyeball it. Sure, I could put the extrusion at the end of the file, but that's disorganized and annoying, and I don't want to keep computing it. Minor, but it's also really nice to be able to just turn my screen and show what the design will be like to other people without having to wait for it to compute more things. Furthermore, it's nice to have the decal in place to reference how the finished assembly will look while I'm designing and tweaking it.

I've attached a small sample of a portion of the just face as an image. I couldn't get the scale exactly right, and the indication lines aren't completely lining up. Does it really matter? In this case, eh, but it would be a very nice quality-of-life fix, and it certainly would matter in other situations, especially for reference images.

It's just very frustrating because this is such a basic and integral part of using digital images in almost any context. It is also in a program where setting dimensions is a core function, and the issue was brought to your attention 7 entire years ago and still hasn't been addressed.

It would also be nice to change the reflectivity, emissiveness, etc of decals so that they aren't geared only towards plastic stickers and work more like textures, but I can take or leave that for now.

[davidcuesta76]

Place a decal in correct scale please. Blender does it, maya does it, i'm pretty sure 3DS does it, sketchup does it.

[lqg5960]

Absolutely true, and the same goes for the canvas feature, which also has this problem.

[magnusbeischer]

@Phil.E, if second one is "rather technically challenging", does that mean that the first one is easy to implement? And that you just don't care? This bug report is 7 years old now with 100 replies in the thread, and needing to use an alternative CAD program in the workflow is frustrating. Please give this higher priority in your development.