Patch Environment Design Help - Guitar Neck

[oldtbone55]

Hello Out there,

I've been working in the Sculpt environment on a guitar neck but ran into some issues and am now trying to design it in the  Patch environment. I'm actually hoping that I can get some of it done in Patch and then switch to Sculpt for the finishing touch's. I've been able to create the surface bodies for most of the neck and headstock but there is an area where they join that needs to transition smoothly and I don't know if it can be done in Patch. The area is on the underside of the neck where the headstock and neck meet (it's called a volute). How should I move forward from here? I've attached my file.

@jeffstrater

@cekuhnen

@Anonymous

[TrippyLighting]

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@oldtbone55 wrote:

@cekuhnen

My apologies Clauss, I'm not sure I understand what's going on. I see that you've highlighted in yellow two horizontal lines at the bottom of the headstock but don't understand how they aren't horizontal. The first yellow line coincides with the end of the sketch of the bottom of the headstock. The second yellow line was created in the sculpt mode from t-splines. Are there any other yellow highlighted lines that I'm not seeing? Maybe time for new glasses.

Thanks from the old timer.

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OK. I give up! 😉

[oldtbone55]

@Anonymous

I agree. Leaving that edge as a hard line could pose problems when buffing the laquer. I would give it a light sanding after the CNC to round it off. I'm not really worried about doing some hand sanding in some areas to refine the contours as long as it not too much. The arthritis in my hands really acts up so anything to reduce 'hand' time on the neck is bonus. I'll try as you suggested and put the fillet in the model but not CNC it. I've got 4 test blanks of wood I've put together to try using different methods.

Cheers!

[oldtbone55]

@TrippyLighting

Yes, I know. I suffer from old timers syndrome.

Thanks.

[cekuhnen]

@oldtbone55 @Anonymous

T-Spline geometry is not linked to sketch input.

While modeling you must have moved them!

Check all the yellow edges that are shifted to the left and the bodies are rotated very slightly.

Sadly T-Splines unlike other polygon modelers does not offer custom transformation vectors and such to scale align the meshes as needed.

Honestly faster is trash the model and restart!

Also two thoughts on the CNC sanding T-Splines or Solid Modeling.

If hand sanding is an issue then model and CNC everything - that is what CNC is for - you can also CNC fillets - why not!

This way you make sure the fillets are even.

If you want to sand a little then short cut this modeling with a solid loft and those sharp edges and sand everything by hand.

If you want to CNC the fillets then best use the T-Splines modeling approach.

I have to be honest here - Fusion lacks for such a delicate detail the tool depth and sketch engine stability to do this well as a parametric modeler.

Particularly when you are new this is to be fair a pretty tough transitional and advanced surface blend to create.

So I would select what fits your skill level best.

[oldtbone55]

@cekuhnen, @TrippyLighting, @Anonymous, @jeff_strater, @PhilProcarioJr

Thank you very kindly Claas (I got it right this time, I think). As a novice I guess I don't have the experience to recognize when something I'm trying to model is either really hard or easy. My approach was, it's doable, I just need to figure out the best way to do it. It never struck me as a daunting task so I didn't have any preconceived notions. Folks like yourself that have been doing this for a living have the experience to recognize difficult to achieve designs but also have the knowledge to know how to use the tools in Fusion or whatever CAD program you're using to achieve the result wanted. Maybe if I was aware of the difficulties at the beginning I might not even have attempted this. When I was creating the body portion it seemed like I'd never be able to accomplish it either, but it's the people on this forum, like yourself, that provided me with the help and patience to see it through. For that, I can't thank everyone enough.

With respect to the body being shifted you're absolutely right. I must have moved those t-splines while manipulating the shape somehow. The top and bottom sketches of the headstock I imported as DXF files so I wouldn't have to go through the process of sketching the headstock again. Both of the original sketches were created on a plane at an angle, the top sketch being projected to an offset plane .5" away. Guess I'll just start over again.

As to the hand sanding vs CNC machining, I would rather be able to do this completely on the CNC as this is really what I'm after. No doubt a light sanding afterwards will still be required but I wouldn't have to sand any hard edges to a fillet. I'll probably try both approaches on my test stock just to see the results. I definitely am leaning towards the t-spline method.

Thanks again.

[oldtbone55]

@cekuhnen

Hello again Claas, I've run into a topology problem when trying to convert my t-spline body to a B-rep and just can't seem to figure it out. If you get a moment can you look at my file?

Thanks.

[cekuhnen]

@oldtbone55

Obviously if your hands are hurting and you have time then why not CNC as much as you can - even when it takes time to CNC small fillets.

Regarding why I see issues instantly - plain experience of doing this for years. With practice you will get to there too.

CAD is a constant learning - tools are the same but each model is different - so also for me learning does not stop.

Regarding your TS issue - this seems to be a T-Splines NGON problem that some long time ago creeped into Fusion.

But this is where smart tool selection can help. Instead of modeling the rounded end I would use surface modeling to rather to it.

I added a screen-cast for you explaining this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byzv_NlyKp_2bFNhUXNoNWJEbmM/view

Instead of extruding from t splines you can also extrude as surface the end and then adjust the shape when adjusting the sketch.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byzv_NlyKp_2Z0ZiT0JEY2pyX0E/view

this makes use of tools the best

[oldtbone55]

@cekuhnen, @jeff_strater

Hello Claas, wanted to get back to you earlier but this weekend has been busier than a one legged man at a butt kicking contest. The methods shown in your screencast perfectly illustrate what you can do when you have the experience to recognize the best tool(s) to choose for the job. The issue with the N-gons was so easily remedied by both of the methods you show. I too also ran into the problem you did when I tried to loft from one face to another on the neck and resolved it in the same manner you did.

Jeff, please have a look at Claas' first screen cast at around the 4:56 time mark and you'll see what happens when he tries to loft the neck profile using the profile faces. This appears to be a bug.

Stay Tuned & Thanks!

P.S. Claas, the reason you couldn't find where the sketch for the top of the headstock came from was because I imported it into the drawing as a .dxf file. I never actually drew it in the file you were looking at.

[cekuhnen]

@oldtbone55

No worries - I assumed they were imported or such.

However this again shows you why in general I never use aka trust any imported stuff.

while you cannot edit those in fusion sadly - you also have to make sure they are correctly positioned!

[oldtbone55]

@cekuhnen

Hello Claas, been working away on the heel portion of the neck transition trying different methods to create the t-splines to get the profile where I want it. There are two things I ran into that I don't understand.

1. I created rails for the transition to help when lofting from the neck to the neck heel but wasn't able to use them and I don't know why they wouldn't work. The rails would not highlight when I chose them during the lofting command in sculpt mode. I also chose to approach the lofting by going east to west rather than north/south using the rail sketches to loft between. I think this method works better than the way it was done for the headstock to neck transition because the profile at the heel is a lot deeper but that's just my opinion.

2. When I converted the t-spline body I lost some of the t-spline lines on the heel and the curved profile of the transition. I don't understand why happened and maybe it's not supposed to happen but I'd like to know if possible. Part of my problem with Fusion is not being able to tell if I've made a mistake or the program is not functioning properly.

I've attached my file when you have a moment to spare.

Thanks again very much.

[oldtbone55]

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@oldtbone55 wrote:

@cekuhnen

Hello Claas, been working away on the heel portion of the neck transition trying different methods to create the t-splines to get the profile where I want it. There are two things I ran into that I don't understand.

1. I created rails for the transition to help when lofting from the neck to the neck heel but wasn't able to use them and I don't know why they wouldn't work. The rails would not highlight when I chose them during the lofting command in sculpt mode. I also chose to approach the lofting by going east to west rather than north/south using the rail sketches to loft between. I think this method works better than the way it was done for the headstock to neck transition because the profile at the heel is a lot deeper but that's just my opinion.

2. When I converted the t-spline body I lost some of the t-spline lines on the heel and the curved profile of the transition. I don't understand why happened and maybe it's not supposed to happen but I'd like to know if possible. Part of my problem with Fusion is not being able to tell if I've made a mistake or the program is not functioning properly.

I've attached my file when you have a moment to spare.

Thanks again very much.

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@Anonymous, @jeff_strater,

Hello Guys, I posted this the other day and forgot to add you to it. Let me know what you think of the progress I've made.

Thanks.

[jeff_strater]

I saw this when you posted last week.  (I've been keeping an eye on this thread...)  It's looking really good.  You are the most diligent, patient new CAD user I have ever met.  You are becoming quite the surface modeler, @cekuhnen, I'm sure, is proud.  Can't wait to see the rest of the guitar!

Jeff

[cekuhnen]

@oldtbone55 Hey can you make me a screencast or screenshot and tell me where goers what wrong!

I am pretty flooded with work right now (teaching started - moving to new house - getting baby room ready - making sure pregnant wife does not go nuclear).

Than I could help you better.

[oldtbone55]

@cekuhnen

Claas, let me offer you my congratulations and best wishes. I hope Mama isn't going too nuclear on you. Been there, done that. Second, I want to apologize for interrupting you when you have so much going on. The most important thing to focus on is your family right now and my questions are the last thing on your mind (okay, maybe the second last thing, HaHa). I will try to put together a screencast or screenshot but don't worry about this right now. When things calm down you can get back to me in your own time.

All the best and please let me know when the big day arrives.

Thanks again.

[oldtbone55]

@jeff.starter 

Thanks very kindly for your words of encouragement. They are greatly appreciated. @cekuhnen has been a fantastic mentor and I owe him big time for me being where I am now with Fusion. So many others on the site have also provided me with help and they deserve kudo's as well. Keep tuning in.

Best Regards.

[cekuhnen]

@oldtbone55

"I will try to put together a screencast or screenshot but don't worry about this right now. When things calm down you can get back to me in your own time."

hahaha when things are calming down hahaha 

Well I will busy one way or the other. So better do the cast now before the baby is here so I can look over it than later.

And I am happy to hear that the direction we provide helps you with Fusion and learning how to design with the tools and options it offers.

[oldtbone55]

@cekuhnen

Okay then, here's two screenshots. Some of the t-spline lines disappeared after I clicked Finish Form. I've got a before and after screenshot of the results where I tried to point this out. Start stocking up on sleep, you won't be getting much of it once the baby comes.

Cheers!

[cekuhnen · Accepted solution]

@oldtbone55

Too many details (edges) inflating the design.

We can thin this out to get the same shapes/surfaces with less geometry.

Less geometry is always an ideal solution!

Here a screeny: 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byzv_NlyKp_2OER3aGFNdlQxaG8/view

@jeff_strater there is a T-Spline display bug in the sceeny - I attached the file

[TrippyLighting]

@cekuhnen Actually that is not just a T-Spline display issue. I've had this with a surfacing model with no T-Spline in it.

I believe it's the LOD algorithm in Fusion 360's display code going wild. In my case the problem went away when I set the Display Detail Control to Fixed/High.

[cekuhnen]

@TrippyLighting Ah that is good to know. Pretty bad display bug