learning product design

[Anonymous]

I am not new to design just new to product design tools and CAD programs. I am very eager to learn as much as I can as quickly as I can. Which programs would you recommend for renderings and other software to learn and what is the best online way to learn them?

Cheers!

elliot

[Pedro_Bidarra]

Fusion 360 has a rendering module.

Well, why don't you start with Fusion 360 Tutorials that come bundled in the program?

[Anonymous]

Hi Elliot, it's great to hear the motivation you have!  Besides the great Fusion 360 videos and just experimenting with the program, sign up at hobbymate.net to get updates on a free learning system for Fusion 360.

Good luck man!

Jesse

[Anonymous]

Thank you as it sounds like a good start

[cekuhnen]

Fusion buil-in rendering is good for many tasks but not sufficient for everything.

Many prefer Keyshot because it is so easy but I think it is a crippled overpriced piece of ...

For serious rendering learn a real render software: Maya 3DMax Modo Blender C4D they all can do more or less the same

Recently Thea Render released a live plug-in for Fusion. The software is pretty affordable and for product rendering has all the tools

one needs.

With Fusion you can pair Rhino or MOI (NURBS) Maya (subd + NURBS) Modo or Blende (subd only).

Youtube is full of tutorials. you can check my playlist if you want.

[Anonymous]

Thank you very much for the advice as I shall look into them. I hear a lot about MAYA, Solidworks and Autodesk. Since I am not an engineer or architect, I wanted to know which system is more roundly used in the product design field.

Thank you again!

elliot

[Pedro_Bidarra]

For mechanical engineers, which work mostly with parametric modelling, Solidworks is the most popular choice.

For product/industrial designers Rhino seems to be highly popular specially for it's Direct Modelling capabilities (think of very complex curved surfaces and organic forms).

Architects and Civil Engineers use different tools, like Revit.

Fusion and why it's called Fusion wants to combine Parametric and Direct Modelling into a single solution (I believe Rhino also has some parametric features, and Solidworks might have DM features? I don't know), paired with collaboration and off loading the heavy lifting to the cloud.

So for a Product Designer I would recommed Rhino or Fusion 360, Fusion is a new platform and has some rough edges, but in the long run seems to have the greatest potential.

This is what I gather.

[TheCADWhisperer]

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@Anonymous wrote:

... I hear a lot about MAYA, Solidworks and Autodesk. ....

---

Autodesk is a company - not a product.

Here is a List of Autodesk Design Products.

[Anonymous]

Hey Elliot, I wanted to mention a key feature of Fusion 360 is a much larger vision of what the near future holds for creative pursuits, understanding there is limitless potential yet untapped and undeveloped in the people of the world.  Fusion is designed to be user and learning friendly, integrates high performance CAM (for CNC machining, another exciting related frontier of the next people empowered revolution), and even most amazingly, has a new kind of license model, which allows anyone to use the program (all the others are exorbitantly priced, exorbitant for not established firms anyway) -- students of course, but also hobbyists, enthusiasts, makers, business startups, etc!  If/when you have a business endeavor that really gets going, currently defined as making over 100K a year, then Fusion 360 is reasonably priced. 

This is just such an exciting development it cannot be overstated, and is a key reason I dedicated myself to learning Fusion 360 inside and out.  It has the spirit I share in seeking to teach others this empowering doorway and world into the 21st century!

Be sure to post on the forum with any questions you may have.

Jesse

[cekuhnen]

@Anonymous

I think SolidWorks Rhino ProE are very popular tools.

However I would not focus on what is popular.

I like to repeat one of the statements I give my students: Eveybody uses MS Word but do you know anybody who loves it?

Word is a pretty obese piece of software.

So Rhino is popular for few reasons. First it has many tools. It is quite diverse. It is very affordable for 1k. It is easy to learn.

But when you need to make complex fillets, or change parts of a design Rhino is one of the worst software to use.

Compared to that Alias is harder to learn but in the end the tools deliver better surface results later.

I taught Rhino for many years and today prefer Alias for its more focused and refined surfacing tools.

Solidworks is also pretty popular because of the price point. Siemens NX kills SW in an instant. Where SW is a silly engineering

tool like in the 80th NX or Catia give you the design tools you as a designer want.

The reason why I bring up this comparision is because you need to be sure about one thing:

Do you want to learn of software for the softwares sake

or

Do you want to learn the process then the software does not matter.

In my teaching I do not care about option A but focus on B. In the end that holds more value to be able to

say you know parametric surfacing generative modeling jada jada then saying all you know is SW.

Here is an example I am pretty new to NX and wanted to confirm something for Fusion in terms of workflow.

I was quickly able via Youtube to see a quick demo of a process to see how one would do something in NX.

So I went to the lab and tested it myself.

In the end all apps use the same commands loft extrude patch revolve jada jada only the UI and steps are different.

Point is that my experience with Fusion instantly helped me to get along in NX.

This does of course not mean not to learn SW but I would not be so focused on it as it is the holy and only grail.

[cekuhnen]

With Fusion I think you have a very good platform. The new update offers some better fillets which is a plus.

It still lacks here and there some much needed surfacing options but I am sure during the time it takes you

to learn Fusion and surface/solid modeling, the Fusion team will deliver the surfacing tools. What is missing

is also more what I would consider some upper needs for quality results a beginner might not have use for yet.

It is a pretty solid plaform and while Solidworks wants me to teach their software I see a better use for my students

in something more diverse like Fusion and where it will go.

[Pedro_Bidarra]

cekuhnen does make a very interesting point about learning to use the tool or learning the 'craft'.

A musician can easily learn to play a new instrument because he knows music, and in the end it doesn't matter what instrument he uses, but what we hear.

What I think is important to learn about the 'craft' first is to learn Parametric Modelling, which is a process by which you can drive a model by a series of attributes that relate to each other via operators, these variables can be re-manipulated at anytime and preserve all other attributes. The good thing about this process is that everything gets parametrized automatically and you can go back and forth on a 'timeline' and change operations.

Quick example, imagine you have a 50 x 50 mm cube with four holes on top, each in each corner of the cube, the hole is 5 mm and the perimiter distances from the edge another 5 mm. If you parametrized your model correctly and you want to change the hole size to 6 mm, but preserving all the other parameters I have just stated, you can do so very easily by just updating the diameter of first hole, because I parametrized that the distance of the center of the hole to the edges is R+5, and I have then created an array from this hole or two mirror operations for the other 3 holes.

All that I just described is not Fusion specific, it's how you can frame things in the Parametric Model. I'm sure cekuhnen could give much better examples.

[Oceanconcepts]

I will say that Autodesk, and by extension Fusion, seems to have a handle on the changes that are happening in the world of design- things like automating engineering aspects of some design processes, 3D printable embedded electronics, and the use of cloud resources to do tasks that would be difficult on the desktop. Also making top tier tools accessible to many who could not afford them previously.  SolidWorks, while popular, seems to me very much rooted in the product design environment of the last 20 years, Fusion seems headed towards the next 20. 

See for instance: http://spark.autodesk.com/blog/wire

But What Cekuhen says about learning the process rather than a specific tool is spot on. I only wish I had 5% of his knowledge. 

[cekuhnen]

@Oceanconcepts

This year I had an interesting failed interview at a design studio where they were looking for a 3D specialist.

Once talking to the lead designer he stated, after I explained to him my process, that he still sketches by hand first

and only because CAD is to slow. In a second sentence he stated he uses Solidworks.

At that point it was clear to me that that studio that needs a 3D specialist is employing a lead designer who has no clue

about CAD and what this can include because the person is only focused on Soldiworks and thus limited by the great

indsutrial standard it offers.

I think he must have sleept with open eyes when I was talking about starting with concept modeling while sketching in 2D and 3D

as a fast ideation process and later refining the work in a more procise CAD system.

Month later I saw that position open again I cannot imagine why ...

The reason why I meantion this is because I experience both sides. I found people who are very knowledgeable about design tools

and people also in lead position being to be honest less educated than my students (overdramatized). I am by nature a very optimistic

but also very sceptical person and that quite quickly made me not put much value on big words talk.

Another nice thing is when companies say who uses that - nobody does - we use Solidworks.

That means: I have no clue what really is going on but only know that little bit what we do internally.

The thing is today the options and market changed a lot. Specifically the generative modeling area exploded.

But many simply dont know that.

That's why in my teaching I switched to focusing mainly on process and technology and using a software as a vehicle.

Once you now how to drive what car does not matter.

I wish the industry would be more open to change and improvements it is really a pitty sometimes.

[cekuhnen]

@Oceanconcepts

This year I had an interesting failed interview at a design studio where they were looking for a 3D specialist.

Once talking to the lead designer he stated, after I explained to him my process, that he still sketches by hand first

and only because CAD is to slow. In a second sentence he stated he uses Solidworks.

At that point it was clear to me that that studio that needs a 3D specialist is employing a lead designer who has no clue

about CAD and what this can include because the person is only focused on Soldiworks and thus limited by the great

indsutrial standard it offers.

I think he must have sleept with open eyes when I was talking about starting with concept modeling while sketching in 2D and 3D

as a fast ideation process and later refining the work in a more procise CAD system.

Month later I saw that position open again I cannot imagine why ...

The reason why I meantion this is because I experience both sides. I found people who are very knowledgeable about design tools

and people also in lead position being to be honest less educated than my students (overdramatized). I am by nature a very optimistic

but also very sceptical person and that quite quickly made me not put much value on big words talk.

Another nice thing is when companies say who uses that - nobody does - we use Solidworks.

That means: I have no clue what really is going on but only know that little bit what we do internally.

The thing is today the options and market changed a lot. Specifically the generative modeling area exploded.

But many simply dont know that.

That's why in my teaching I switched to focusing mainly on process and technology and using a software as a vehicle.

Once you now how to drive one car you can drive most. Trucks might need some extra further training but thats it.

I wish as a creative industry places would be more often open to change and improvements.

[cekuhnen]

Hey Ron - thanks for the nice comment but there are many more who know more than I do 😉

[Anonymous]

Wow, thank you for such a detailed piece of mind. It is nice to hear the advice of divers individuals and see what they say from their experiences in order for myself to weigh it all out and take it with a grain of salt. That being said, hearing such information from one who teaches these related topics and programs lends a slightly different yet important factor to the conversation. Just as it is important to hear bits of information from one who has been in the business for years and understands what companies are using and wanting their employees to know.

I really appreciate the time and effort you took in writing your opinion as it will be heavily weighed with all the others and most thankful. Please feel free to expand on any other thoughts that you feel obligated to write as my ears are most tuned to hearing such opinions.

cheers!

elliot

[Anonymous]

I think you hit a lot of good points. Especially your metaphor about driving cars. I am quite confident in my deisgn skills and hand illustration capabilities. (always room for improvement by the way) That being said, that is exactly the the approach I am wanting to use. I want to understand the CAD process and learn how to drive "the car" so that when and if I am needed to learn another program per company or project, it will be quite easy to a certain extent.

I think I will begin with the Fusion tutorials and online classes and continue from there and hopefully get the education I need in order to use and understand such a program as an extension of my own body. I know it will take a bit of time but hopefully sooner than later.

🙂

[cekuhnen]

I have students who cry out about how and what I teach. Often that is because they are scrared sometimes. In reponse to those suggestions I tell them that very often companies also offer some in-house or sponsored training to catch on sofwtare xyz. And honestly I also tell them that my class would be a waste of time to teach just software because that is pointless. For sure when students have a good foundation then having a very technical in depth class is fine because they refine skills. But often they are rather far away from it because to be honest they are too lazy to learn. CAD is hard work. When they ask me about why I know so much I tell them there is something called download trials youtube and weekends 😉

That said I never experienced a situation where the good students were not able to land a job because they did not know the software. It was rather the opposite that in smaller

studios they added value to the skill set.

When I started teaching some industrial pros laughed at my workflow. Today from Catia to NX to Fusion sub-d modeling in conjunction with NURBS is common and accepted.

Specifically Catia is crazy. Thats why today I rather smile when I hear this solidworks is the standard and everything.

Obviously you have to use the right tool for the right task and today there are still those who explore options than those who dont want to learn something new.

I heared that from company people as well. That resistance to learn I think sometimes explains their kinda funny way of making general statements.

And those statements can be very dangerous to students to hear because they think hey he is from company A so it must be all good.

Fortunately we have Ford and such next door and they use all tools at their disposal from Alias to Mudbox and now even in car design sub-d concept modeling takes on.

I think after some months you will really like Fusion. Let us know if you need any help.

[daniel_lyall]

@cekuhnen @Anonymous

there are two types of managers ones you work for and the one`s that dont know what the heck they are doing and use big words I have had that a few time 3 jobs in one week.

the same goes for teachers the good ones show you how, why and where but more why and where 

why is why you do it, where is where to get help more info and show is how you can/could do it not how you do it.

fusion is a ok product for all most everything it will be in a coulpe of more years it will be the goto product