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How do Fusion 360 experts build an assembly like this without using joints?

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Message 1 of 52
mgianzero
5057 Views, 51 Replies

How do Fusion 360 experts build an assembly like this without using joints?

So I've gotten fairly good at some drawings using F360.  However, now I was thinking of designing and building my own 3D printer using Fusion.  I've seen a few completed models like this one (https://gallery.autodesk.com/fusion360/projects/97840/voron-1?searched=) on the Fusion 360 gallery.  But how to they position parts like the frame and all the parts without using joints? 

 

I'm fairly new to assembly using rigid joints, but I don't see that they did this in this example or others I've seen.  It would seem like a really tedious job to do if they did.  So how does one create such a parametric model and place all those parts exactly where they want them?

 

Marc G.

51 REPLIES 51
Message 2 of 52
etfrench
in reply to: mgianzero


mgianzero wrote: So how does one create such a parametric model and place all those parts exactly where they want them?

 

Marc G.


By using jointsSmiley Happy

ETFrench

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Message 3 of 52
TrippyLighting
in reply to: mgianzero

You probably did not create a drawing but a model in Fusion 360. To assemble such a device you'd use joints. 


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Message 4 of 52
mgianzero
in reply to: TrippyLighting

Sorry but I don't think you read my question closely enough.  I have created models and I have used joints to assemble them.  However this model (as well as several others I have seen on Fusion Gallery) do not appear to use joints.  That is, unless I am just not seeing it.  I don't see joints used in this example.  Do you?  For some reason, this forum won't let me post the F360 file, but you can see it and download it from here: https://gallery.autodesk.com/fusion360/projects/97840/voron-1?searched=.

 

So how does one position these parts without using joints?  It seems to me that there would be some some of quick technique to places these parts that I can't think of.  Again, I am still learning about Fusion 360, but don't seem to know an easy way to do this.

Message 5 of 52
TrippyLighting
in reply to: mgianzero

I did read your question. You can ask yourself now why an Autodesk Expert Elite with almost 30 years of experience in CAD, 3D modeling, engineering and building very complex machinery recommends to use joints.

 

Of course you can design this stuff in place and don't need to use joints. But just because that can be done yes not mean it is a good idea to do so! In fact, in a design that uses multiple instance of the same components that is an outright terrible idea!


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Message 6 of 52
TrippyLighting
in reply to: mgianzero

I've looked at the design you linked to.

 

It looks to me this design was not designed in Fusion 360 but exported from a different application and then imported into Fusion 360.

The timeline is disabled, which is the default for imported geometry.

There are almost no sketches in that design, which is something that does not convert over to Fusion 360 from other applications.

 

If you do want to design something like this in Fusion 360 you would have to delete the timeline after designing it. Delete all the joints and all the sketches.

Or if you don't use joints you'd have to use the align and point-to-point move command. Again I'd strongly advise aginst not using joints.


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Message 7 of 52
Anonymous
in reply to: mgianzero

@mgianzero

Marc,

 

I´m interested if there is a "question behind your question"?

 

a) there is no "question behind my question" -> ok, done

b) "I want to know if there are some hidden/secret/magic functions to position geometry" -> then the answer is "no"

c) "I dislike the traditional/general parametric approach of first create geometry somewhere and then mess around with some functions to position it correctly" -> in my opinion, that would be a very valid concern

 

Manfred

 

 

Message 8 of 52
Anonymous
in reply to: mgianzero

@mgianzero

@etfrench

@TrippyLighting

 

Let me explain why I consider option c) a "very valid concern".

 

For thousands of years, designers/engineers used the "create geometry in place, all in one file" approach: scratch in the sand, draw on papyrus/paper, use 2D/3D-CAD.

 

Then in 1988, PTC released ProEngineer and changed the CAD-world (and our minds/brains).

 

And the CAD-world followed with "me-too" products: several long-forgotten workstation-based products, and PC-based systems like SolidWorks, SolidEdge, Mechanical Desktop, Inventor and so on.

 

The new paradigma was "create geometry here in one file, then mess around to position there in an assembly".

 

From my point of view, one great thing of Fusion 360 is that it allows both approaches!

 

Maybe we (including myself) "parametric-brainwashed" people underrate and underestimate the benefits of "create geometry here in place, all in one file".

Maybe our standard answers to questions like this should reflect both approaches: "create here and mess with position there" or "create in place".

Maybe we should even dare to say "create in place unless you have a good reason not to".

 

Manfred

 

PS to avoid responses like "but you should do an additional action after create in place"  -> I consider "ground" or "as-built rigid joints" or "rigid group" not as "mess with position" - that´s just fixing positions.

 

 

 

 

 

Message 9 of 52
TrippyLighting
in reply to: Anonymous

That build-in-place top down methodology indeed works fairly nicely in Fusion 360. However, particularly when designing machinery you will need many identical components to build that machine and in CAD software instead of designing that identical piece a second time from scratch, as you know, you'd create an instance of that part. That instance has to be placed somewhere and in Fusion 360 you can do this in mainly two ways.

 

  1. You move it into place using either the align function or the point-to-point move tool, but then you'll have to use a position capture feature to capture the position of that part. That has a few distinct disadvantages, e.g. the position capture feature does not show up in the browser..
  2. Use joints.

There is actually a third way, but I am not sure I'd recommend that either so I'll keep it to myself 😉


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Message 10 of 52
davebYYPCU
in reply to: Anonymous

As a self taught hobbyist, with some very limited 2d Cad training, (1980's)

 

"create in place unless you have a good reason not to", 

 

Works for me.

Message 11 of 52
mgianzero
in reply to: TrippyLighting

Looks like I've started quite a conversation here.

 

I apologize if you interpreted my comment of not reading my question closely enough as offensive.  I did not mean to insult.  I am merely learning here.

 

I guess I failed to realize, if I'm understanding you all here, is that this "Voron" 3D printer model example I attached was NOT created using Fusion 360, but rather in anther CAD program.  I didn't realize that was the case since someone apparently took a lot of time to create a F360 file with all the components imported (again I'm guessing that's what they did).  Otherwise, I would see the entire model as one body instead of separate components, no?  So I'm further guessing that the individual parts were drawn using another format and imported as STL files, or the like.  What's confusing to me is that I can select these components such as the 20x20 extrusion frame pieces and they appear to highlight the individual features as lines, but you cannot individually edit these features.

 

In addition, this model seems to have quite a few parts (some of which could be multiple instances of same components) but that's still a lot of separate files for each separate component, no?  Wouldn't it make better sense to have all these components included in the same Fusion file and simply connected as joints?  Isn't that what many of you are suggesting here?

 

So I've done some simpler models where I "assembled" a model using joints.  But when I did this, I used the "Insert Into Current Drawing" option under the Data Panel.  This would create my linked part to my assembled model so that when I edit my individual parts, my assembly could be easily updated.  Pretty sweet feature.  However, I didn't see any linked parts here (I apologize if I'm not using the correct terminology here).  But I've only done this with a few of my personally drawn parts or imported screws and such, where I could select the points on each piece to connect as a rigid joint.  That seemed more straight forward.  But how does one connect pieces like the frame pieces here when they are at right angles to each other?  What's the easiest way to join them?  Perhaps someone can show me through a simple example if it's not too much trouble.

 

 

Thanks for all your input.

 

Marc G.

Message 12 of 52
TrippyLighting
in reply to: mgianzero

No, offense taken!

 

I've only done this with smaller stuff, but I believe if you export an assembly as a .step file from Solid Works the assembly structure is maintained, but all the application specific information such as sketches, feature tree (roughly comparable to the timeline in Fusion 360) are stripped.

 

When you import that into Fusion 360 it attempts to recreate the structure and by default for imported geometry the timeline is turned off ( for a good reason!)..

What was previously an instanced object is not an unliked copy and "dumb" geometry.

 

To interchange Cad data I would strongly advise against the use of. stl files unless there is really no other way. .stl files are triangulate meshes that lack accuracy.

 

While you can use linked components for an original design there is no need to first create a component in it's own file and insert it. You can create instances of components in a single file without using any external files, by simply copy/pasting a component. The copy will update when the original is updated.

 

 

 

 


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Message 13 of 52
TheCADWhisperer
in reply to: Anonymous


  

For thousands of years, designers/engineers used the "create geometry in place, all in one file" approach:  

 

 

I am pretty sure that is all wrong, but in any case - how would you build the real thing? Even today I see physical prototypes fabricated.  The advantage to a digital prototype is that it more closely resembles the real-world equivalent steps and reveals issues that where previously missed until it came time to do the real work - assemble the assembly.

 

 

Message 14 of 52
Anonymous
in reply to: mgianzero

I think you're looking for the move function. If you then want to lock the part in place...you need to ground it.

For early design quick conceptualization...using the move function can really help you speed up the package optimization process without needing to define and redefine joints repeatedly. That's the only time that I am aware if where you may not actually want to use a joint from the beginning. I'm sure there are others that fall out of my domain.
Message 15 of 52
mgianzero
in reply to: Anonymous

Okay, I'm following what people are saying here, but I can follow much better by example.  I'm being encouraged to use joints, so how to I add joints to this model I provided? 

 

I'm planning on drawing some parts using F360 for a future design, but there are many parts that I would like to reuse such as the extrusion pieces and much of the hardware for the framing.  Do I select each body individually and make a joint in place?  Should any of these pieces be grounded first?  My knowledge of assembly is somewhat limited despite my reading online documentation and do a few very simple assembly models myself.

 

I also do not understand the easiest way to position parts like the frame using a rigid joint.  What would be a good common point to join and how do I rotate many of these parts to be perpendicular to the other?

 

Sorry about the novice questions here but I just need a push in the right direction and I'm sure I can figure much of the rest myself.

 

Marc G.

 

 

Message 16 of 52
TrippyLighting
in reply to: mgianzero

Well ... that also is not easy to answer  😉

 

It sort of depends what your goal is. If you want to really learn how to use joints you might approach this differently then if you just want to get on with assembling this.

 

Biut I can tell you how I would do this. Consider that this is an imported assembly and all the components are already in their intended location and orientation. Somewhat similar to a top down design where everything was designed in place.

 

All stationary components would go into an as build rigid group for stationary components.

The main moving components in the X, Y Z axis would go into rigid groups for that axis. 

 

The few remain components that need to move independent for example the components on the extruder for advancing the filament I would use as-buil;d rigid, revolute etc, joints for.

the key in this assembly is that everything tis already ion place and you cause the as-built joints very effectively.

 

If this design would be designed from scratch the process would be very different. Say, for example you start with designing the frame Meade from Aluminum profiles. You might create components for the 1st frame profile extrusion, active it, create a sketch for the first profile in the desired assembled location and then extrude it. 

Bit that profile is already needed 4 times. You would obviously not want to create that profile 4 times from scratch. You'd copy/paste an instance of it into the design. Fuiosn 360 will allow you to move it to a desired location and the first move when tasing and instance is free in the sense that it does not create a feature in the timeline. Then you would want to usee a joint to assemble that profile into the correct location and orientation.


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Message 17 of 52
mgianzero
in reply to: TrippyLighting

Would someone please provide a more concrete answer for me on how to do this  ...  i.e. orient parts and make them rigid joints?

 

Here's the beginning of my extrusion frame I am trying to build and can't seem to figure out the easiest way to join parts that are perpendicular to each other in 3 axes.  

 

 

Message 18 of 52
TrippyLighting
in reply to: mgianzero

Have you watched any of the introductory tutorials in the Support and Learning section of the Forum ?

These basic steps are covered there.

 

Please don't take this as an offense. I obviously don't mind answering your questions, but I don't want to start with Adam and Eve!


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Message 19 of 52
davebYYPCU
in reply to: mgianzero

Want to try again, this attached file is empty. (22kb)

Message 20 of 52
mgianzero
in reply to: davebYYPCU

Hello Dave.  So nice to see you reading my posts!  You are always so helpful with all your advice.

 

Sorry about the empty file.  Here it is.  It links to my other files, so I hope I included everything here.

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