Autodesk Simulation CFD - Calculator Volume Flow Rate Need Help. Tks

Autodesk Simulation CFD - Calculator Volume Flow Rate Need Help. Tks

Anonymous
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Message 1 of 53

Autodesk Simulation CFD - Calculator Volume Flow Rate Need Help. Tks

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear Mr Jon Wilde,

 

I had designed a part, like picture below. And I want to reduce the Volume Flow Rate from 10-20l/h to 1-2l/h by a narrow way for water. But in Simulation I still got outface water have a same Volume Flow Rate with inface water. Can you help me to explain why and how to fix it? 

 

Here is my CFD file: it 13Mb, I can't upload to this forums...http://www.mediafire.com/download/mk7tu100ttgds97/TEST+PART+CFD.cfz

 

111.JPG

pic test part.JPG

Total.JPG

AND the narrow way for water

pic2.JPG

 

I have attached my DWG file design and my CFD Simulation. If possible, pls help me to understand why the Volume Flow Rate isn't change . Many thanks and Best Regards.

Hoang Su

 

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Accepted solutions (4)
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Message 41 of 53

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear Mr Jon and Mr Apolo,

 

Thanks for your help, today I have some questions about application of Autodesk Simulation CFD in real life:

 

1. If I setup pressure 8bar inlet like pic below, so, if I put a Presure Gauges in that area in real life, it will show 8bar right?

real.JPGdo_ap_suat.jpg

 

If not, please help me understand difference of Gage/ Absolute, Static/ Total... Because I want to apply my design in real life and I have to make sure the same inlet pressure condition.

 

2. Suppore 1 is done, I have a pipe with diameter inside is d ( like pic below), and my pipe length is L. And my pressure want is P ( example 8 Bar above). Can you help me to choice right power of pump ( kW or h.p) to my pipe? If possible please help me about formula to calculate the power of pump to get that P pressure ( just an estimate formula ,:) I know in real we have many friction)

pipe.jpg

 

 

Thanks and Best Regards.

Hoang Su

 

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Message 42 of 53

Jon.Wilde
Alumni
Alumni

Hi,

 

1) There is a page here that I think will be of use to you. It might take some reading/studying and googling 🙂

 

2) This really depends on the pump design. Can your pump drive your desired flow rate with an 8bar back pressure? 

 

 

Message 43 of 53

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear Mr.Jon,

 

Thanks for your reply. But...

 

With my question 1: I mean if I setup 8 bar Gage Static ( Steady State ) Pressure for the inlet area in Autodesk Simulation CFD (like picture above). Now in real life, I want to setup the same condition inlet pressure with 8 Bar Gage Static ( Steady State), So, my Pressure Gauges must show 8 bar on its surface right? ( the Pressure Gauges use for caculate pressure of pipe).

 

My point is : does 8 bar Gage Static ( Steady State) in CFD the same with 8 bar result in Pressure Gauges's surface in real like?

 

With my question 2: It is support for question 1, if I want to have 8 bar pressure in Real Life, I must have a right pump for this. And I have http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pumps-power-d_505.html with basic caculate.

 

Thanks and Best Regards.

Hoang Su

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Message 44 of 53

srhusain
Alumni
Alumni

In addition to the concepts of gage and absolute pressure, for simulation with incompressible flow in general, keep in mind that the solver sees pressure not as a thermodynamic quantity but a mechanical quantity which enforces continuity of flow, or mass balance. Therefore the solver is only interested in the variation of pressure within the calculation domain.

 

As an example, suppose you have a pipe flow problem where you apply the velocity or flow rate at the inlet and a zero gage pressure at the outlet. Then, the inlet average pressure, which will be calculated by the solver, will be equal to the pressure drop inside the pipe because the pressure solved at the inlet is the so-called gage pressure and so the pressure drop is simply the inlet pressure minus the exit pressure which was set to zero. Let use assume that this pressure drop is equal to X units.

 

Now, take the same pipe with the previously applied inlet flow rate, but set the exit gage pressure condition to 1000 units. When the solver finishes with a converged solution, you will see that the velocity field is almost exactly the same as in the previous analysis, and that the average pressure calculated by the solver at the inlet is very near to 1000 + X units. Therefore, the pressure drop in this analysis is 1000 + X - 1000 = X units, exactly the same as in the previous run, which is to be expected.

 

In summary, when running an incompressible flow analysis with constant density, it is the change is pressure inside the device and not the values applied on its boundaries that is of importance.

 

Hope this helps.

Message 45 of 53

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear Mr. SrHusain,

 

I have tried to understand the fuild for a week and now I come back 🙂 I think I understand you mean about pressure drop, and I have some questions:

 

1. You mean if I apply a fixed velocity or flow rate at the inlet. Then any value outlet pressure ( 0 or 1000), I will have the same pressure drop (or nearly), that is X.

 

2. Suppose I have this X value. I will have Cv of valve right?, then in real life If I want to have example 50 litre/hour, with X and Cv, and outlet flow rate, I can calculate the inlet pressure I need to apply for 50 litre/hour. Is it right?

 

If not please let me know what I can do with this X, and if I want to have example 50 litre/hour with my pipe, how I calculate the inlet pressure for that...

 

Many thanks.

Hoang Su

 

 

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Message 46 of 53

srhusain
Alumni
Alumni

Hi:

 

1) That is correct.

2) Knowing the flow rate (based on applied inlet velocity or the flow rate itself), CFD will solve the pressure drop across the device/valve and therefore you will be able to calculate Cv using the standard formulas, so you are correct.

 

So, for example, set up your valve with an inlet flow rate of your choice as a boundary condition and apply an exit pressure of zero as a convenience. Then solve to get the inlet pressure (you can either use the bulk calculator for a cutting plane positioned at the inlet or simply look up this pressure in the summary file for the same inlet). This inlet pressure is essentially the pressure drop across your valve. After this,

Cv = FlowRate * sqrt( fluid specific gravity / valve pressure drop ).

 

It is really quite simple.

Message 47 of 53

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear Mr. Srhusain,

 

Thanks for your help. Today I have some questions about application of CFD in real life:

 

1. How I compare the volume flow rate of my valve ( the lowest flow valve possition, and highest flow valve possition) with the SAME inlet pressure condition (maybe constant flow of pump) ?

 

Should I apply the same inlet pressure and zero at outlet pressure? ( I think it is wrong), because with difference valve possition we will have difference pressure drop. If we apply like that, we have fix it with the same pressure drop. It isn't right in real life.

 

2. I found with the same possition of valve and with difference of volume flow rate inlet ,we will have a difference pressure drop, and difference Cv also. My question is : how we know outlet volume flow rate with my valve in real life if we just know inlet pressure ( another inlet pressure we had simulation and without using CFD)

 

3. If my part (valve) pull water to the air in real life, that mean it will have 1atm = 101325 Pa pressure outlet in CFD, is it correct ?

 

4. If we calculate the pressure in pipe by Pressure Meter, it is Absolute Pressure value, is it correct?

 

Many thanks for your help.

Hoang Su.

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Message 48 of 53

srhusain
Alumni
Alumni
Accepted solution
1. The best way to do this is to apply a flow rate and vary the valve opening, which will give you corresponding pressure drop values (set the exit pressure to zero, so that the solutions for the inlet pressure for each valve opening will be the pressure drop for that geometry). Remember that the absolute pressure at the inlet is not important, only the pressure drop is important- see the definition for Cv. You should be applying a flow rate. Also you must not apply a pressure where you are applying a flow rate because this is an improper setup for incompressible flow. 2. Once you have Cv plotted against pressure drop or valve opening, you have all the information- with this relationship, you can estimate the valve flow rate for a given pressure drop. Note that the outlet flow rate will ALWAYS be very nearly equal to the inlet flow rate in order to balance mass, and this is also true in real life, no matter the valve opening, pressures, or the flow rate. 3. You are correct. However, note that pressure never "pulls" the fluid- only that the higher pressure pushes fluid towards the lower pressure. 4. It depends on how your instrument is setup to measure the pressure- for example if you use a u-tube manometer with one end open to the air, you will be getting the gage pressure, etc. In summary, I would strongly recommend a text-book in fluid mechanics to help answer your questions in detail, particularly with respect to the meaning of the various terms used to describe pressure such as gage, absolute, relative, etc. Hope this helps.
Message 49 of 53

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear Mr. SrHusain,

 

Thanks for your help, let me try with my CFD and come back later 🙂

 

Thanks!

Hoang Su

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Message 50 of 53

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear Mr. SrHusain,

 

Do you have any link or document teach how to plot Cv? 

Can CFD plot it?

 

Thanks and Best Regards

Hoang Su

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Message 51 of 53

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi,

 

With Autodesk CFD, I can get the Pressure Drop value by apply inlet volume flow rate, then I can calculate Cv factor of my Valve. And as I read, the Cv factor is an constant value. So I want to know : Outlet flow rate of my valve (Q) if I just know Inlet Pressure value (another value Inlet Pressure). Because we don't have Outlet Pressure value, so we don't have the DP, and We can't plot Q chart.

 

Btw, if you have any Document, link about Cv, Flow rate, how to plot the Flow chart with Cv value, pls provide me to understand this application in real life. Many thanks

 

Capture.JPG

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Message 52 of 53

Jon.Wilde
Alumni
Alumni

Hi,

 

If you had a P=0 at your outlet and a flow rate at your inlet, CFD would predict the inlet pressure, giving you the dP.

 

Check this out too - CV Calculator

Message 53 of 53

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear Mr Jon,

 

I have undertand all about this. But when I have the factor Cv, what should I do next with this ? ( I mean I want to know outlet flow rate if I know pressure inlet in real life )

 

1. I want to plot chart about relationship between inlet pressure and the flow rate outlet. Can I plot it if I just have factor Cv ?

Like this:

155_44-1300 Flow Chart Cv=.8.jpg

2. With a value of Flow, we just have a dP, Cv. So, how about the difference flow or difference inlet Pressure ? Can we using factor Cv to calculate outlet flow rate without using CFD?

 

3. Summary I dont know how to using factor Cv. And in Real life we can know about inlet pressure but we can't know outlet pressure of our valve. So, we can't have dP, so we can't have it's flow rate.

 

Many thanks.

 

Hoang Su

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