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selling licenses if company reorganizes

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Message 1 of 53
Anonymous
888 Views, 52 Replies

selling licenses if company reorganizes

Anybody been through it and lived to tell about it? I'm curious whether is it possible to sell some licenses if a company reorganizes, changes names, etc? Sometimes partners decide they've had enough, and things change ever so slightly... I'm seeking some general guidance and maybe a description of pitfalls/things not to do as well as any suggestions how to approach this "if it should apply". Caveat: I don't like reading license agreements or talking to my reseller - so please do me a favor & ignore the question if you are feeling the urge to advise me in that direction.
52 REPLIES 52
Message 41 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Imagine this scenario: You are the owner of a company. You have an office with 7 computers and 3 computers in your shop. The computers in the shop run windows NT and specialized software for machining. The office computers all have windows installed and various other software, CAD to financial to database management. Now your business is successful and doing well. All the sudden you have the need to move out of state due to a family emergency and you would like to sell your shop. By letting these EULA's stand the way that they are you may have a very difficult time selling your business. Some of the software vendors could simply refuse to transfer a license if they were called and asked to do it or put an unreasonable price on such a transfer of ownership. Now the judges have said many times in these cases and similar ones that the copyright holder was never intended to have such power. Clearly the position you would be in would almost definitely be seen as "unfair" by any reasonable jury or judge. There is no guarantee though. Now there is a case, Bowers vs. Baystate, where Baystate lost 5.75 millions dollars for clicking on a license agreement. The Supreme Court refused to hear the case. It is possible that they may hear another similar one and rule against the "click" as being a valid contract, but in this case we will accept the license is valid for certain circumstances. This situation was different because Baystate was found to have reverse engineered Bower's CAD software which was in direct violation of the license agreement. Note that at the time of the case, there was no reverse engineering clause allowed in the copyright law, but there is now. So there was nothing in the copyright law to give them an excuse to do what they did. Reverse engineering has been since allowed in other cases. The reselling of what you own is very different. There is a clause of limitation in the copyright law on this. This situation has several different things going on. First, and most important, there does not seem to be one case that was heard at the federal level concerning this issue exactly, so we really have no precedent to go by. Second, the 9th court's ruling did mention contracts and copyright law and they did not throw out contract all together. Well, I think they made a big mistake on this one. It was too generic to be of help to us.. Third is the copyright law itself, it's intention and preemption status. Congress was given the power to make the law in the Constitution. It basically says that it's purpose to promote the arts and sciences. There can never be the perfect law in this area. It is designed to create a balance. If too much power is given to the copyright holder then the promotion of creativity is lost. It's intention is specifically give and then limit this power. Being able to sell the software you have purchased gives you money to buy new and possibly better software. Restricting this is clearly not the intention of the law, as it says that it wants the owner to be able to resell. Next is the situation of this case: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/property00/alternatives/vaultsumm.html In this case, contract law was thrown out because of the preemption status of the copyright law. "With regards to the shrinkwrap license, the court found that it was unenforceable as a contract of adhesion unless the Louisiana Software License Enforcement Act, which purported to validate such licenses, was enforceable. In this regard, the Fifth Circuit held that the Louisiana statue directly conflicted with the rights of purchasers of copyrighted works set out in section 117 of the Copyright Act, and thus was pre-empted by federal copyright law. As such, the shrinkwrap license was deemed to be invalid." Granted, we are talking about a shrinkwrap license here, but the general reasons shown was that there was a situation that directly conflicted with the rights of purchasers and in this situation the copyright law was upheld first and the states contact law was thrown out. Please note that I am not contesting the validity of a click on contract, just the situation where it conflicts with intentions of balance in federal copyright law. The 7th court upheld this in general here: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/property00/alternatives/grusd.html "In ProCD, Inc., v. Zeidenberg, the United States Court of Appeals or the Seventh Circuit held that shrinkwrap licensing agreements included with software products sold off the shelf are valid contracts under Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code", This attorney here agrees with me that this has become absolutely ridiculous: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/property99/alternative/Elkin-Koren.html "Users are arguably always subject to restrictions when they use a copyrighted work. But restrictions imposed by copyright law are limited and reflect the balance between the need to induce creation and the need to guarantee public access to information. If copyright owners are free to use contractual arrangements to restrict use, and are then able to use copyright to prevent any use that is not subject to these restrictions, owners are gaining absolute monopoly over their works.72 " "Today, more than ever before, we need a theory that defines the boundaries of the freedom of contract in the context of copyright law. In the past, copyright law was limited to contexts in which contracting was impossible or was prohibitively expensive; in fact, copyright law arose to address the inability of contractual means of exclusion. On-line dissemination and other technological methods of licensing allow the replacement of copyright law by a contractual regime, which suggests that copyright may no longer play a central role in protecting owners' rights.80 However, copyright may now become crucial for defining the balance between owners and users. Just as legal intervention in the market for information was originally necessary to allow the exclusion of non-payers, legal intervention in the market is now necessary to allow the inclusion of non-payers. The need to secure general access to information will require maintaining copyright schemes in contractual regimes." In the ProCD case above the two courts disagreed. The first court upheld the notion that the copyright law preemption was important, but the appeals court had a view that it just was not a big enough of a deal. The information was already freely available, so there was no monopoly of the software data and that the buyer could have gone somewhere else and viewed this ability of the buyer to be the main economic concern. Understanding the full case is important, because the appeals court may have found differently if it was a simple economic case of just reselling a full seat of software that you bought. They were trying to protect to company that compiled the freely available list from basically being stolen. The case of reselling your software, an investment, may have been seen quite differently. The economic realities for the owner are disastrous if they cannot resell what they have bought. On this page there is an interesting discussion about adding tracing software to a sold software to track it's use and then a lawyer responds stating this: http://www.cni.org/Hforums/cni-copyright/1996-02/0755.html "As it happens, it also provides a nifty means for copyright owners to price discriminate -- charging per use, for example, even though "use" is not one of the exclusive rights reserved to the copyright owner. Mark Lemley Assistant Professor, University of Texas School of Law Of Counsel, Fish & Richardson, P.C. Clearly he feels that rights not granted to the copyright holder should not be allowed to circumvented by any means and that it should preempt. Here is more from him: http://www.cni.org/Hforums/cni-copyright/1995-01/0780.html "The courts are unanimous that shrinkwrap licenses are ineffective to alter or avoid the federal intellectual property laws. Whether bargained licenses can change federal intellectual property rules is subject to more debate, but there is certainly a strong (and I think ultimately persuasive) argument that federal policy regarding reverse engineering should prevail. David Rice wrote an excellent article making this argument in the University of Pittsburgh Law Review 3 or 4 years ago. So, while most licenses certainly claim to prevent reverse engineering, it is not at all clear that they succeed in doing so." His comments above are huge. He is a specialized attorney in this area and he is saying that the courts will not uphold a contract that takes away rights granted in the copyright law.. The first part concerns not actually clicking okay to a license, but the last part, the licenses that you acknowledge, he says is open to debate, but he does agree with me that the rights the copyright law grants to the owner of software should prevail above the contract. Here is another good one from Mark: http://www2.tltc.ttu.edu/Cochran/Cases%20&%20Readings/Copyright-UNT/mark_a_lemley.htm " 2. The Validity of Particular Terms ..... Contract law offers three circumstances in which license provisions in an otherwise valid contract will not be enforced. First, the contract term may be "unconscionable." Unconscionability is governed by U.C.C. section 2-302.55 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/) Under this provision, unconscionability has two components: the absence of meaningful choice or bargaining power on the part of one party (procedural unconscionability) and contract terms which are unreasonably favorable to the other party (substantive unconscionability).56 The procedural element is satisfied if the contract was not negotiated, and the party claiming unconscionability lacked meaningful choice in entering into the contract.57 The substantive element is satisfied by proof of "harsh" or "one-sided" results that unreasonably place contract risks on the party lacking bargaining power.58 While unconscionability generally arises in form contracts that unfairly bind individual consumers, it has sometimes been applied to protect small businesses as well.59" It is just like I was saying. It is unfair for a software company to add a contract that prohibits reselling it. I see it as absolutely and positively unconscionable. Thus making that provision non-binding. Now here we are getting into what is contract law and how far it reaches. It has been decided by several courts that contract law at the state level, and that is what we are talking about here in the contracts of software, are unenforceable if they attempt to circumvent copyright law. http://www2.tltc.ttu.edu/Cochran/Cases%20&%20Readings/Copyright-UNT/mark_a_lemley.htm "the court in SQL Solutions, Inc. v. Oracle Corp.74 limited the effect of a choice of law provision, holding that "federalism principles dictate that state rules of contractual construction cannot interfere with federal law or policy. In particular, state law must be applied in a manner that does not conflict with federal copyright law and policy."75" Now we are getting down to the nitty-gritty. Supreme Court's decision in Goldstein v. California79 ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/412_US_546.htm): The Supreme Court stated: Just as a State cannot encroach upon the federal patent laws directly, it cannot, under some other law, such as that forbidding unfair competition, give protection of a kind that clashes with the objectives of the federal patent laws. The States cannot separately make effectual provision for either of the cases, and most of them have anticipated the decision of this point, by laws passed at the instance of Congress.[n1] Congress has decided that free competition should be the general rule until it is convinced that the failure to provide copyright or patent protection is hindering "the Progress of Science and useful Arts." In such cases, a conflict would develop if a State attempted to protect that which Congress intended to be free from restraint or to free that which Congress had protected. This is exactly what we are talking about here. The Supreme Court has said that State's cannot create contractural laws that add or take away what the copyright law has granted. A software company that relies on contractural law based in their state, that is what the software companies are using, are prohibited from doing an end-around of the expressed rights granted to the owner of software in the copyright law. One of these rights is to use it and another is to resell it. It is my opinion that the EULA is a valid contract, but a provision that says you cannot resell what you bought is invalid for two reasons. 1. The act is unconscienceable and therefore not binding. 2. The Supreme Court has said, (note that all the Justices, even the ones that dissented, agreed in this area) a state law cannot attempted to protect that which Congress intended to be free from restraint or to free that which Congress had protected. Clearly Congress has intended the buyer of software the right the sell or dispose of his copy any way he wants. These are my opinions of what I have read. Thank you for your continued intelligent feedback. It has been most enlightening and educational for me. -- David Wishengrad President & CTO MillLister, Inc. Software for measuring and stretching multiple 3D solids. Http://Construction3D.com -- David Wishengrad President & CTO MillLister, Inc. Software for measuring and stretching multiple 3D solids. Http://Construction3D.com
Message 42 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Yeah Anne
But surely if this issue was Black and White you could
Cut and Pasted some sort statement from Autodesk clearing up their position,
You have to admit that the fact that everyone from Autodesk is staying out of this area of discussion could make some people think that it is a grey area, what do you think is it a grey area or not ?
Message 43 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Yeah Anne
But surely if this issue was Black and White you could
Cut and Pasted some sort statement from Autodesk clearing up their position,
You have to admit that the fact that everyone from Autodesk is staying out of this area of discussion could make some people think that it is a grey area, what do you think is it a grey area or not ?
Message 44 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

It is black and white, or rather black and silver grey. It's your EULA.
Message 45 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Sorry Didn't know your name was OLD-CAnne as well !
Message 46 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Well considering this is a peer-to-peer forum, open to all ideas and opinions, anyone is free to comment on any post. If you'd prefer a more private venue, email is always an option.
Message 47 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Ok mate put the handbag away i've already read your
whole argument and know where you stand and appreciate
that theres some substance to your argument, i just wanted to know what Anne thought so i asked what she thought
the moderators/ assistant moderators usually step in if they can clear an issue up

So for the record " if your not Anne or another Moderator Don't reply, please, with sugar " easy :o)
Message 48 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Dan, This is a peer-to-peer support venue. Anne's position is (as is ours) as a facilitator. Although you will see us post replies (as we are users too), we are volunteers who are here to help point users to the correct groups, offer help or make suggestions and make sure discussions stay on topic and are within the posted ground rules. And yes, on occassion we have to pull messages as they are not appropriate (aka: being huskied). You will also notice Autodesk employees coming in and offering help, but that is on their own time. (read: all information and discussion here are considered peer-to-peer regardless of who is employing the poster). Anne, however is not a user. So taking up technical problems, asking her to read through code or in your case, a licensing issue(s) is not her forte or part of her function. You should take that request up directly with your reseller and/or Autodesk's customer service as they are the ones who would best assist you with those types of questions & concerns. One thing I might add, is your should review your EULA as your term of "selling licenses" is not (IMO) correct, it would be transfering a license, and yes I have seen it done for a variety of reasons, but always with the assistance of a reseller and/or Autodesk directly. -- Tracy W. Lincoln Autodesk Discussion Group Facilitator http://www.autodesk.com/discussion-announcements "Dan@Solaglas" wrote in message news:29385349.1078934525122.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum1.autodesk.com... > Ok mate put the handbag away i've already read your > whole argument and know where you stand and appreciate > that theres some substance to your argument, i just wanted to know what Anne thought so i asked what she thought > the moderators/ assistant moderators usually step in if they can clear an issue up > > So for the record " if your not Anne or another Moderator Don't reply, please, with sugar " easy :o)
Message 49 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

As pointed out earlier this is a public forum, and as such you'll just have to live with comments from the peanut gallery. If you wish privacy, use email.

BTW, it's my handbag, and I'll put it away when I'm good and ready.
Message 50 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Is it a Grey Area Tracy ?
Message was edited by: Dan@Solaglas
Message 51 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Sure i understand, im putting my handbag away anyway :o)

thanks
Message 52 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Grey area? only if you insist on asking us vs. talking it over with your reseller and/or Autodesk directly. Users in here might be able to respond with their specific reason(s), or situation(s), or reply as to if they were sucessful (or not) in transfering of licenses. Would that help you in your specific situation, possibly and possibly not. Call your reseller, explain what it is you would like to do and let them tell you what or what is not permitted or what is required. All I can say (from my personal user experience) is that I know it is possible again under certain terms & conditions. -- Tracy W. Lincoln Autodesk Discussion Group Facilitator http://www.autodesk.com/discussion-announcements "Dan@Solaglas" wrote in message news:5744746.1078991436542.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum1.autodesk.com... > Is it a Grey Area Tracey ?
Message 53 of 53
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I just want to point out that is not Autodesk's policy to have the moderators respond to direct questions. I can see their point on this and would have to agree that it is not in the best interest the forum for moderators to be singled out. Another good reason is what Tracy mentions about being their area of expertise. It becomes a trap for them and it is unfair. Although there are times I disagree with Anne, I can say that when push comes to shove she usually exhibits patience and fairness. Is she always right? No. She is human however and I do not expect to agree with her on everything. Furthermore, she must do as her superiors direct her and as a result she is not on equal ground to conduct a conversation, at any level, with a general user of this group. whit that said, there were time I disagreed with her, but later agreed with her position and realized I was wrong. Secondly, this is not a gray area. If you read my post, on 2/3/2004 at 10:01AM in this discussion, you will see that with the assistance of some very good intellectual property attorneys from Cornell and Harvard I was pointed to the defining case that settled the issue. It is your given right to sell, use and dispose of your copy of copyrighted material. Copyright holders are barred by the copyright law from controlling this processes and these right are expressly granted to owner of the software. EULA are contracts based on state law are preempted by the copyright law. http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/412_US_546.htm Supreme Court justice said: Just as a State cannot encroach upon the federal patent laws directly, it cannot, under some other law, such as that forbidding unfair competition, give protection of a kind that clashes with the objectives of the federal patent laws. "The States cannot separately make effectual provision for either of the cases, and most of them have anticipated the decision of this point, by laws passed at the instance of Congress.[n1] In such cases, a conflict would develop if a State attempted to protect that which Congress intended to be free from restraint or to free that which Congress had protected Thirdly, I also find it interesting that they did not respond to this thread due to it extreme importance, apparent conflict with the wording of the EULA and most importantly, the fact that someone did respond on the "Illegal alien? AutoCAD 2004 development outside America ..." thread in the object arx discussion group on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:14 PM. The response said that there was a mistake in the EULA concerning the developers questions. No company is perfect and I respect Autodesk for clarifying it's position in that matter. I hope they will revise their EULA to reflect the attorney's findings that I have posted or at least bring forth something to indicate that they disagree and on what law their position is based. This is an end user forum, so they are not required to respond, but it would still be nice. Does this mean they are intentionally avoiding this thread? No. There is no proof to back that up. You can always call their legal department and ask them to review this thread and respond to you in writing and then post it. I am not selling any Autodesk software, so I have not bothered. The fact that no one has actually done this already and posted back their response shows that this is not a very common issue. Perhaps someone will take it up. I certainly do not see it as a terrible thing on their part. My company was also told by it's attorney's that we could prohibit the resale through the EULA. I now believe my attorneys made a mistake. With all of this said, I have seen many used copies of AutoCAD sold and have never heard of them contesting it. They may already agree with me on this issue, but just do not want to speak publicly about it and perhaps there is one or more other resaons and not the first. We are left to conjecture what we wish, but get proper licensed legal representation before you do anything that is in conflict to a contract you have agreed to. -- David Wishengrad President & CTO MillLister, Inc. Software for measuring and stretching multiple 3D solids. Http://Construction3D.com

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